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fieldmouse
Jun 19, 2003, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: cant believe that this many people are in favor of retro'ing existing routes. The future of climbing has never looked more grim. For one thing most climbers want things done for them ( i.e. new routes, new bolts, new anchors) and don't have the energy, time or guts to do something like this! It also just reflect the opinion of a few internet wankers that have no sense of rock climbing history, protocol or ethics!
thanks bob. I'd be willing to bet that almost every wanker that is for retro'ing has been climbing for less than 5 years. (with the exception of kalcario, lord of the wank) wake up people! this shouldnt even be an issue!!! death to retro-bolters!!!!!!!!
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drector
Jun 19, 2003, 6:04 PM
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That is a good point about the rules, etc... except that I've read about too many cases where the FA's actions were not respected by other well known climbers (Harding, et al...). I'd say that it is a very weak rule if the people who the little people like myself should respect don't respect each other and don't respect those "rules". This is not a new debate which gives a little more strength to both sides of the argument.
In reply to: It's BECAUSE the rule are arbitrary that the game works, and it BECAUSE they are arbitrary that people are conservative about changing them.
It is a game and so is the debate over the rights of the FA. Those rights are only given to him by the community and it's obvious by the posts here that only a portion of the community recognize those FA rights at the extreme as the ultimate decision makes as the the protection on a route.
Others like myself respect the routes and the ascents and the FA's participation in the ascent but otherwise don't feel the FA is the sole speaker on the route's protection. He did only find it, he didn't create it. His art can be recreated at any time by any other who climbs the route otherwise people would not be intetested in second and following ascents. While I'm climbing the route, the art, the moves, and the whole experience is mine. Only the bolts were dontated and placed by someone else. If enough climbers think that a bolt needs to be added then why the hell not add it (beyond the obvious answers about presetrvation, access, etc...)? If there are such strong rules then why not use the majority rule. Make it a democracy not a dictatorship.
So let's be daring and question rules and question authority (the FA?!?). It's part of the history of climbing for climbers to be anti-social misfits who disregard authority and seek something beyond rules and regulations. I would not be true to the history of rock climbing in the US if I didn't dislike the squared off, stright laced, confining strangle-hold of society... Sorry. That's was more of a rant than a reasonable argument. Some days I just hate having a desk-job.
Can anyone suggest a rough location where I might find an unclimbed section of rock so that I can do an FA and know more about what I speak ;) ?
Dave
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ljthawk
Jun 19, 2003, 6:34 PM
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Some more entertaining reading
http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/
L.J.
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on_sight_man
Jun 19, 2003, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: That is a good point about the rules, etc... except that I've read about too many cases where the FA's actions were not respected by other well known climbers (Harding, et al...). I'd say that it is a very weak rule if the people who the little people like myself should respect don't respect each other and don't respect those "rules". This is not a new debate which gives a little more strength to both sides of the argument..
Agreed, it's a weak rule as are most of the "rules" in the climbing game. I WOULD say that probably the only reason we know about these instances is because they are the ones where the rules were broken (how many times have you heard a hoopla about Sosa hitting a single with an UN-corked bat?)
In reply to: It is a game and so is the debate over the rights of the FA. Those rights are only given to him by the community and it's obvious by the posts here that only a portion of the community recognize those FA rights at the extreme as the ultimate decision makes as the the protection on a route.
That's because there are so many new people joining the community. The rules MAY change, and if so, so be it, but I have yet to hear any generic rule enforcable by the community that would stop some chuffa from ruining a climb for others by WAY over bolting. (And yeah, sorry, but I do think putting in bolts changes the nature of a climb, even if I don't clip them). Note, I'm not talking about you, OR Tuolomne here. I haven't met you, OR been there.
In reply to: He did only find it, he didn't create it. His art can be recreated at any time by any other who climbs the route otherwise people would not be intetested in second and following ascents.
In reply to: While I'm climbing the route, the art, the moves, and the whole experience is mine. Only the bolts were dontated and placed by someone else.
Just like the game of tennis you play is your own, but it rests on history of people and conventions which make the game what it is.
In reply to: If enough climbers think that a bolt needs to be added then why the hell not add it (beyond the obvious answers about presetrvation, access, etc...)? If there are such strong rules then why not use the majority rule. Make it a democracy not a dictatorship.
It is in fact a democracy and like I say, the rules probably will change (hell they've evolved alot already right?) This rule hasn't (IMO) and I think it's probably because there doesn't appear to be any better altrernative.
In reply to: So let's be daring and question rules and question authority (the FA?!?). It's part of the history of climbing for climbers to be anti-social misfits who disregard authority and seek something beyond rules and regulations. I would not be true to the history of rock climbing in the US if I didn't dislike the squared off, stright laced, confining strangle-hold of society... Sorry. That's was more of a rant than a reasonable argument. Some days I just hate having a desk-job.
In reply to: Can anyone suggest a rough location where I might find an unclimbed section of rock so that I can do an FA and know more about what I speak ;) ?
Ther IS a dearth of good, safe, moderate routes around. It was VERY frustrating for me... for awhile. At the risk of sounding high almighty (I haven't been climbing much longer than you...), bumping up your climbing to 5.10 opens HUGE numbers of safe sport climbs and can be done by weekend warriors like I will soon be :(
Kirk
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badphish
Jun 19, 2003, 7:47 PM
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bottom line is, no one should put bolts on a route
that they did not set up! Its just not right.
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bobd1953
Jun 19, 2003, 10:58 PM
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bobd1953 wrote:
Quote:
Are we really arguing about the principal of the FA owning the rock or is there a real threat?
The title of the tread would lead you to believe that we should be talking about FA owning the rock. Funny, I have put up over 800 FA's and never thought I owned anything, including the gear I put in! That is a question with a simple answer, no the FA party does own the route they put up on public lands. I would hope that if someone did not like the job I did on the FA (bolt placements or lack of them) they would at least contact me and get my opinion on their intentions to change the route.
Did you mean "doesn't own the route" because it is a bit confusing otherwise to say you never thought you owned anythig then to say "no the FA party does own the route."? I don't want to comment on your post until I understand it more clearly.
Dave
Sorry, should read does not own the rock or route
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tanner
Jun 19, 2003, 11:44 PM
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I think bolts have there place in climbing and I also think that saftey is very imortant. However Climbing isn't always going to be safe or easy.
On classic routes I don't think bolts should ever be added. Every climb is diffrent some easy and well protected others arn't.
I know when I look at a climb from the ground its much more exiting to me to see the natural rock and wonder if I can climb it. Than see a line of shiny bolts cutting up the face. One seems so pure to me the other just so manufactured.
It would be sad to see evey route bolted up and made comfortable for every one. Runouts are a part of climbing so is challenge, adventure and fear.
There are many routes that I would love to try but are still to bold for me. But these unatanable routes give me somthing to strive for.
well, I've got some climbing to do
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dingus
Jun 20, 2003, 7:20 AM
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In reply to: Sorry if I got it wrong but I believe it is true. The finders-keepers attitude towards the FA owning the route is a bit childish.
My brother you do have it wrong. It isn't out of selfishness or greed. It's out of respect. It starts from a position of respect.
DMT
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dingus
Jun 20, 2003, 7:24 AM
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In reply to: For one thing most climbers want things done for them ( i.e. new routes, new bolts, new anchors) and don't have the energy, time or guts to do something like this!
This is SO true. And many of them lack the know how as well.
Bob, do what many of us have done (Whatthehell am I saying! I'm not preaching down to you brother, I'm whispering across the aisle!)...
Stop telling the wankers about your routes. They'll never find em on their own. End of problem.
DMT
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stickclipper
Jun 20, 2003, 8:47 PM
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In my view, the first ascensionist's mode of ascent on rock must be respected at all costs. No, this doesn't mean that you have to do it with the same amount of falls. But it means that you should be roughly up to the task of doing the route that the first ascensionist set up, whether she bolted it or left it a trad route. If it is bolted already, then NO NEW BOLTS should be added! Likewise with a trad route. Out of respect for the person who did the FA and had the vision and cabability to do so, this standard must be held up.
I have heard it said that a beginning climber should not use a drill or start setting bolts for the first five years of his climbing career. I agree so much with this statement. Let the more experienced climbers do the bolting, because they know by experience how routes are put up. Typically, they have the eye for a good line, with solid rock, cool exposure, and great position. So many times, I've run across routes put up by inexperienced climbers that run up poor sections of rock, requiring extensive "cleaning", i.e. crowbarring flakes and chipping.
One of the neatest things about climbing is that it requires such a long time to become proficient at its many aspects. There are easy climbs and hard climbs, safe climbs and runout climbs. You start as a clueless, fearful wannabe and slowly, at your own pace, you gain confidence and skill. Runout climbs, when approached with caution and the prerequisite experience, can generate feelings of euphoria unlike anything else. So, if you're a 5.8 leader and you try a 5.4 with runouts, it can be SO COOL, and you instantly forget that it's "far beneath your limit." The stunning and surprising variations at each grade make numbers largely unimportant. For example, it's much more impressive to lead, say the Bachar-Yerian at 5.11 than it is to climb a chossy, safely bolted, 35 foot-high 5.12c.
I'm in no position to tell anyone how to do anything. Climbing is an intensely personal affair, and it is up to each to do as they please, on and off the rock. So make your own decisions. There are climbs of all styles out there; it's your own responsibility to make sure that you don't needlessly endanger yourself on every single climb you attempt. Please don't ruin the experience for others by changing climbs to suit your ability. "Comfortizing" climbs is no way to go about reaping the rewards of climbing. Show respect for your predecessors or don't expect anyone to respect you.
AAH! My legs are quaking!
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bobd1953
Jun 20, 2003, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: I think bolts have there place in climbing and I also think that saftey is very imortant. In reply to: It is amazing how safe you feel when you are competent and climbing within your limits!
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mewalrus
Jun 21, 2003, 3:29 AM
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In reply to: So let's be daring and question rules and question authority (the FA?!?). It's part of the history of climbing for climbers to be anti-social misfits who disregard authority and seek something beyond rules and regulations. I would not be true to the history of rock climbing in the US if I didn't dislike the squared off, stright laced, confining strangle-hold of society... Sorry.
drector
Exactly, its your proposals that sound more like creating some democratic climbing "authority" that dictates route development.
But then again I can definately see the value in well protected moderate routes. 8) I would just hate to see them all standardized.
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ajkclay
Jun 22, 2003, 2:20 AM
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Surely you should respect the style in which the route was done first up.
If you think that the route is too dangerous to repeat in the manner of the first ascentionist, then it is too hard for you. You still have the option of top roping it (sometimes), but why should someone of lesser ability have the right to bring routes down to their level?
We may as well say that if a route is just a bit too hard for you, go ahead and chip an extra hold here or there. You don't have to use that chipped hold if you don't want.
Just adding bolts changes the nature of a route. Saying that you don't have to clip it is silly. The fact that you can takes away the aura of the route, and with time, memory of why a route was regarded as groundbreaking or special will fade. Climbing has a rich history, and we should all work to preserve it.
There are lots of easy climbs out there for you to lead. Don't take the harder ones away from the climbers better than you just so you don't have to improve.
:) Adam
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climbingcowboy
Jun 22, 2003, 6:56 AM
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As far bolting goes it all depends, I'm not real opionated about it but I feel that routes should put up with the minimal amount of bolts possiable to keep it safe not a X route. I've put in about 12 routes and thats the way I put them in.
Heres another FA question.
My brother and me put in a bunch of routes in a place wth only a couple other guys putting in routes, here comes along a guy who decides to publish a guide to the area the a-hole never contacts us and makes up his own names and ratings wich are way over rated. How can we change this does this dickhead have the right for the routes to be his names and ratings or does the FA. I can understand if its like one route I'd be cool with that, but not 12 and when only 2 other guys who know us and our #'s are all thats putting routes out there, and he contacted them.
One other thing when I finally met this f@cker he simply said to bad you guys should've done a book first. WTF?
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roninthorne
Jun 22, 2003, 7:36 AM
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In reply to: Heres another FA question. My brother and me put in a bunch of routes in a place with only a couple other guys putting in routes, here comes along a guy who decides to publish a guide to the area the a-hole never contacts us and makes up his own names and ratings wich are way over rated.
Wow... deja vu... this sounds so much like how Franklin Gorge was handled, along with several other areas, in the new Falcon Press VA/MD/WVA guide... was the guy's name Horst, by any chance?
Either way, get used to it, dhude... this is the wave of the future with regard to guidebooks, especially those by Falcon Press. Either Mr. Horst or Mr. Green and his son, or some other tired hack goes out to some previously unrevealed area, ignores the developers' requests for discretion, tosses out a bunch of inaccurate beta and incomplete information, runs up all the starred routes in the 5.10c-and-harder range, publishes whatever crappy topo they can find online (even if they know it's BS, they've pretty much gotta go with it, since they can't ask the FAs they're crapping on for one).
They then collect their checks and split, off to take pics of their significant bimbo posing in spandex and defile another crag without ever worrying about the veracity of their "facts", or the impact they've created in an area they didn't develop and won't spend a second or cent on in the future to maintain.
In reply to: How can we change this...
Sadly, you can't... once the djinn is out of the bottle, it's pretty hard to get back in. Damage control is your strongest option, at this point.
In reply to: "... does this dickhead have the right for the routes to be his names and ratings or does the FA?
Well, as a long time developer of new routes and crags, I have to say that this genetic waste was waaay out of bounds, looking to grab some glory off other folks' hard work. But, in the good old U.S of A, the information about your routes is NOT proprietary until you or someone else publishes it, either in a Routes Database like the one here at RC.com or in hardcopy form with registered copyright. So while he has no moral claim to your routes or the right of naming and rating them, he is also under no legal obligation not to do so.
In reply to: I can understand if its like one route I'd be cool with that, but not 12 and when only 2 other guys who know us and our #'s are all thats putting routes out there, and he contacted them.
Sounds like your buddies kind of sold you out, as well, cowboy... sure they're on your side?
In reply to: One other thing when I finally met this f@cker he simply said to bad you guys should've done a book first. WTF?
Pretty much defining himself as a helmet of the first order... and pointing up the strange fact that folks will spend as much as $50.00 on a guidebook they know to be inaccurate/incomplete, published by someone who had nothing to do with the crag, or published against the wishes of the locals and/or developers, as long as that worthless chunk of psuedo-beta has a slick cover, some flashy graphics, and maybe a posed pic or three of the author's trophy wife in some lycra on a juggy, 20-foot-tall 5.12.
Oddly enough, when asked, these same folks balk at paying $5-10 for an accurate mini-guide with area history, FA info, and killer hand-drawn topos, produced by the FA/crag developers and directly benefitting the crags and area.
Funny world, ain't it? Sometimes I think the answer is something like a Joe Pesci solution from "Casino"... you know... take 'em out in the desert and make them dig a hole.... but then my kinder, gentler side kicks in, with visions of forensics pathologists, prosecuting attorneys, and long years in a small room with a large ethnic man named Bubba. It's usually then that I shrug and tell myself "It's only rock climbing, man"...
... as I let the air out of all their tires and pour sugar down their carburetor, somewhere far, far from the nearest filling station....
And, hey, if this dude ripped off your area, let's have his name and the name of the area, so we know not to buy his bogus crap, and can tell him so if we meet him, climbing somewhere... preferably while standing on his rope, slowly pouring battery acid or bleach into his pile of runners and gear...
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reiguy
Jun 22, 2003, 8:04 AM
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Question: if no one owns the rocks and Earth is is ok that we killed all the Native Americans to OWN plots of land in quaint neighborhoods?
Don't be stupid. If you can't hack ROs don't go to T- Meadows. Climbing isn't about saying what routes you've done or ice routes you did with one hand up your... nose.
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climbingcowboy
Jun 22, 2003, 9:17 AM
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The guy was Steve Edwards and it was in his new Santa Barbara area book. He's done a few local books and I wonder how many routes he's stole. This is the place Silly Rock aka Rockfront Ranch http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Area.php?AreaID=3072
In his book he does at say mention "I think these routes were put in by the Santa Maria Guys, Larry Harris and friends". (Larry's my brother) One of the guys Phil Redquist from Santa Barbara put in tons of the other routes, way cool guy and execellent climber. Some of his routes are in the 14s. Phil didnt sell out he thought that Steve would have contacted us but he didnt. Theres more routes then I put in the database I need to scan more photos and topos first.
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crackaddict
Jun 22, 2003, 9:47 PM
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I have something to add about Snake Dike 5.7 since it seems to be a hot topic as a runout route.
I have done that route 2x's. Once with a rope and the second time without.
I prefer to solo it. It is much more enjoyable that way. Also the whole gear thing on that takes up a lot of time for me. The only way I would rope up for that route is if I was climbing with someone else up it and they were'nt into soloing.
In my oppinionI think adding bolts to this route would be a waste of time.
The runouts did'nt bother me. Just alot of hype thats all.
It does'nt seem to bother the hoards of people that do that route everyday. And the 6 parties above and below us that we encountered on the route the first time.
It all boils down to being prepared for the challenge ahead. I did a lot of multi pitch and slab climbing and was confident with myself before doing these routes.
I guess its all on how you approach your climbs. Get yourself ready and its no big deal.
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extrememountaineer
Jun 23, 2003, 2:25 AM
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Well, after going through these posts and tallying up the responses...I win! :P
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hugepedro
Jun 23, 2003, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: Well, after going through these posts and tallying up the responses...I win! :P
Uh, having trouble counting today, are we?
I count 9 people in favor of your side of the argument, 46 against, and 9 that I couldn't discern one way or the other.
That's either some really bad math or you're just posting a complete falsehood, claiming victory while hoping that nobody calls you on your lie. Which is it?
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extrememountaineer
Jun 23, 2003, 11:30 PM
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I didn't want to count all of them...I knew if I said that I won the argument that someone would be suckered into doing an actual count. Looks like I was right. :D The majority can still be wrong.
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ljthawk
Jun 23, 2003, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: I didn't want to count all of them...I knew if I said that I won the argument that someone would be suckered into doing an actual count. Looks like I was right.
Now that's funny.
L.J.
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criscokid
Jun 24, 2003, 1:49 AM
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how bout this...simply ask the person who put up the route. there is a well defined history of runnout FA's that were later bolted because some others suggested that it would be a good idea to the first ascentionist.
i bolted a route in rock canyon, ut. last year and i added a bolt last month because several respected friends who also bolt new routes suggested that it was a good idea to do so.
part of the problem is that climbing ethics are indeed changing worldwide. we are moving from high adventure style to a "safety for everyone" style. those who put up routes these days also need to think about who might be climbing it later. clean off the bad/loose rock if possible. think about the area ethics. if you place a bolt make it a good one that is also in a good place. use your head!!!
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ronamick
Jun 24, 2003, 2:41 AM
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wow! talk about pummelling a bloody corpse! I think that if you removed the comments of a certain handful of players, this would be a 3 page thread, but that's ok. Public debate is a good thing, except when it descends into name calling and petty personal attacks.
I'm not smart enough to summarize any of this, and there will be no consensus, given the disparity of opinion, and the refusal of anyone to compromise one inch.
What I can and will do is offer the personal view of a free climber with 27+ years of experience on mostly California rock, with some big walls and mountains tossed in for seasoning. Please try not to take personal offense as I exercise my first ammendment rights on the subject.
1) Never, ever, ever, ever mess with an established route. If you don't like it, don't climb it. There are lots of beginner routes for gutless weenies who aren't up to running it out. Walk on by.
2) If you do retrobolt some Tolumne classic and I am in the neighborhood, I will personally pull you off the rock and thrash you within an inch of your worthless life, and that's a promise. You had just better hope that I have a ruler with me.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the beginner's forum in search of young hotties in need of help. Ever the altruist, I am truly yours,
Ron Amick,
Poway, CA
(I'm in the phone book)
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hammer_
Jun 24, 2003, 2:49 AM
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[quote="ronamick"]
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the beginner's forum in search of young hotties in need of help.
Now thats a classic! LOL
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