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caughtinside
Jul 21, 2003, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I note that Shoenard says that Mountaineering is not environmental....compared to surfing. That's interesting that he'd say that, since Patagonia builds surfboards. The act of surfing doesn't hurt the ocean... Hey that's what you think, buddy! Surfers scare fish in the act of, you know, doing it. This leads to chroniclely low fish birthrates. And don't forget, a person can give a great white shark indigestion if the surfer eats too much Mexican food. I'm sure you need not be told how much people scare away seals. Everyone out of the water now...
:lol:
I stand corrected. I will quit surfing for the sake of the fish, and quit climbing for the sake of that lichen, and cliff snails.
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crackaddict
Jul 21, 2003, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: Been a while since I said this, but... It's all climbing brutha !!! Sport, Bouldering, Trad, Aid, Alpine, Mountaineering, Gym, Ice, and even Buildering... It's all climbing.
I totaly agree with Adam.
JUST CLIMB!
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calpolyclimber
Jul 21, 2003, 9:27 PM
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Define legitimate... I have MAJOR respect for the FA'ers of old, and I also MAJOR respect for those who bolt sport climbs from the ground up. Both have put it all on the line and went for it.
I think what Yvon was referring to, however was the people who climb that bolted route once the bolts are there, with very little risk (at least very little risk of death). Sport climbing, by definition is climbing, clipping bolts as you go. That is not what the ground up FA did... He didn't clip bolts, he PLACED bolts... Different story all together, and much more admirable.
I honestly have no opinion about whether sport climbing is legit or not. I rarely sport climb, but when I do, its fun. That is what matters.
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stewbabby
Jul 21, 2003, 9:34 PM
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Is masterbating sex?
It sure is fun and could be considered conditioning and practice.
*spit
just a redneck from alabamas take on it.
stewart
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bumpkin
Jul 21, 2003, 10:24 PM
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I bought the R&I mag, just for somthing to read while running samples in the lab.
It is a sh!tty magazine. It reads like one big ad from cover to cover. A handful of nice photos (most in ads), a nice stroking article on Sharma etc. bouldering in India (which could be distilled into: we went to the Third World, where there were boulders, hard problems were sent, and we made sure to include colourful locals in the picture) and then the Chouinard interview.
I have read alot of interviews of Chouinard, and read alot of articles written by him. He is a thoughtful guy and his track record as a climber and buisinessman is impressive. The interview was totally weak: six (?) questions with one-liner responses. This is what deserves the big by-line on the cover? Weak weak weak.
Not to derail the thread or anything, but you could take the entire actual content of the issue and it might fill a page.
Spppfft!
Damn I hope Alpinist keeps going (and lest you think this is some arrogant "alpine climbing is the only legitimate climbing genre" thing, the last Alpinist had a brilliant article on a boulderer keeping it real in Idaho).
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grigriese
Jul 21, 2003, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: Great marketing...
I totally agree! I'm sure Choiunard would have no problem with the fact that I wear Patagonia's unbelievably expensive capilene women’s sports tops while I'm sport climbing. Someone, after all has to pay for Patagonia’s land trusts and sending employees on trips to those land trusts. I'm happy to help.
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allan_thomson
Jul 21, 2003, 11:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Been a while since I said this, but... It's all climbing brutha !!! Sport, Bouldering, Trad, Aid, Alpine, Mountaineering, Gym, Ice, and even Buildering... It's all climbing. I totaly agree with Adam. JUST CLIMB!
Ditto. Lets all grow up, and realise that most of us would try anything, as long as its climbing. Everyone enjoys different things, and each style has its own individual challanges. Personally I'd try all of them (except we don't have sports climbs over here). Remember don't knock it till you've tried it (note: I reserve the right to except certain things from that last statement e.g. Sex with another man. )
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dingus
Jul 22, 2003, 12:04 AM
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The proper reply to Chouinard's troll would be... (drum roll please)
Ivon who?
DMT
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timstich
Jul 22, 2003, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: The proper reply to Chouinard's troll would be... (drum roll please) Ivon who? DMT
Watt fun wood that be? I nominate the Dingus for sending the appropriately worded troll reply to Rack and Lice Magazine, the dirtbag's delight of climbing liturdature. Said letter shall be dispatched post haste. Beer payments to chosen author Dingus will be made upon receipt of e-mail to me.
What beer will be required? Paypal most desireable method of payment. And no, I am not kidding. I commission thee to write this letter. Refusal to do so will be delt with in the harshest manner of mockery. Rest assured, you will not survive the next biting lampoonery if you fail to dispatch Yvon Cheatnard.
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stickclipper
Jul 22, 2003, 12:50 AM
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I don't care so much for this thread in that it's about the legitimacy of sport climbing (I personally love that aspect of the sport), but rather that it concerns Yvon's comments that are taken out of context.
When you've done an old Chouinard route, you know you've done something! What he was doing back in the 60s was just astounding. He was climbing in an entirely different generation, with pitons for pro and the boldness to run out the rope frequently. I think that the climbing of the 60s was in general a lot more about adventure, breaching the unknown and getting to the top with creativity and imagination and big brass balls. Climbing today might be more focused on movement and specific "moves". He was more than one of the old climbing heroes. He took up surfing seriously, went freeheel skiing seriously, and generally played around with very cool sports. And the guy's just a genius. Seriously, with an "if it's broke, fix it and make it better" attitude, he founded Patagonia and the what used to be Chouinard Equipment.
One of my favorite lines from him, which have little to do with this post, but might interest some people:
He said that you can't get lost like you used to: GPS units and outside communications on a climb decrease adventurism significantly. And as he said, the furthest point from a road in the Lower 48 is something like 23 miles, in the Teton-Yellowstone Wilderness. That's only a day's hike. He advocates simplicity, as he says it will lead to a more enriching experience.
Anyway, if adventurism accounts for anything, what Yvon was doing was a wholly different stripe of climbing than what most of us do. The man is one of the climbing gods; you can't insult him. Just respect him and try to bag some of his routes.
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rockfax
Jul 22, 2003, 4:05 AM
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I second thee Timstich...
DMT to write to Rack and Lice with the appropriate counter-troll.
Mick
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rockfax
Jul 22, 2003, 4:14 AM
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In reply to: Just respect him and try to bag some of his routes.
Dude you totally miss the point. Full on respect to Ivon Shoenard, for his climbs, his inventions, his company. Great guy, his importance and influence is immense. Full on respect. If I ever get the chance I will lick between his toes.
But come on boyo: bouldering and sport climbing not legit, climbers today not environmentally aware....He's wrong, so wrong. It's good copy but that's about it.....controversial statements SELL....BIG TIME...our fruckin tribe is better than your tribe. I'm sick to death of that shizen.
Chouinard in a High Country news article said this:
"Chouinard told me he thinks climbing has become less of a “spiritual” and more of a “social event.” As the sport has moved from the mountains to bolt-peppered cliffs, indoor climbing gyms and bouldering playgrounds, he said, “There’s been an estrangement from the environment.”
I think this is more on the money:
But (Bob) Harrington is an optimist. He tells me that he thinks that climbing still pulls in “the same pool of young, liberal kids” who will eventually come to appreciate the land on which they’re playing. “Every generation has had their faction that makes the older generation shake their head,” he says. But, “I see a lot of environmental consciousness in young climbers. You see this in the climbing areas; they’re very clean. Things like limiting trail use — we were never conscious of that before, and now people are.” Maybe these tough boulders will infuse a generation of climbers with a conservation ethic akin to Yvon Chouinard’s and David Brower’s. And maybe they’ll come into town from time to time to fight for these wild places.
Mick
www.rockfax.com
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kalcario
Jul 22, 2003, 4:53 AM
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*“I see a lot of environmental consciousness in young climbers. You see this in the climbing areas; they’re very clean. Things like limiting trail use — we were never conscious of that before, and now people are.” Maybe these tough boulders will infuse a generation of climbers with a conservation ethic akin to Yvon Chouinard’s and David Brower’s. And maybe they’ll come into town from time to time to fight for these wild places.*
Then again, maybe if you were'nt ceaslesslly hyping the Bishop area, the impact that is supposedly mitigated by the hordes limiting their trail use would'nt exist!
Laughable maudlin tripe, both Coonyard's Mouthing Off and this post.
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changling
Jul 22, 2003, 5:35 AM
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In reply to: I see a lot of environmental consciousness in young climbers. You see this in the climbing areas; they’re very clean.
How I wish that were true. Places where I've been climbing, I find pieces of cut webbing, smoker climbers flicking their cigarette butts into the woods, bits of granola bar wrappers at the base of cliffs.... And a lot of these places are just 10 minutes from the car, yet some climbers don't bother to pack out. The more accessible climbing becomes, the more people will show up, and more people means more garbage.
I'm sure that serious climbers are very conscious of the environment and do their best to keep the climbing areas clean, but sport climbing and bouldering also appeals to the occasional "I want to do this because it looks cool" people who might not care as much about the direction the sport is going because they'll only do it a couple of times then quit. This carefree attitude towards the sport can also lead to a carefree attitude towards the environment. But sport climbing and bouldering are not the only problem areas because I find garbage in trad climbing areas as well. The best I can do for now is pack out what others left behind.
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overlord
Jul 22, 2003, 8:20 AM
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its legitimate
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timstich
Jul 22, 2003, 10:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I see a lot of environmental consciousness in young climbers. You see this in the climbing areas; they’re very clean. How I wish that were true. Places where I've been climbing, I find pieces of cut webbing, smoker climbers flicking their cigarette butts into the woods, bits of granola bar wrappers at the base of cliffs.... And a lot of these places are just 10 minutes from the car, yet some climbers don't bother to pack out. The more accessible climbing becomes, the more people will show up, and more people means more garbage.
Well we can't control you Canadians, you know. What with your throwing fists of Big Mac wrappers out your car windows with empty 2-litre bottles of TAB. But really, you're going to have to educate those litter shiites. Embarassment is a good start. Spread the "pack your trash and then some of a stranger's" ethic. Surly you can make enough noise to turn the tide. Put out a bounty on litter bugs.
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interruptor
Jul 22, 2003, 11:08 AM
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Yeah, and field sports aren't legitimate either...
And i wou't even talk about INDOOR SPORTS!!!... :shock:
Man!... I think i'll get naked to legitimate myself! :twisted:
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changling
Jul 22, 2003, 3:17 PM
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In reply to: I see a lot of environmental consciousness in young climbers. You see this in the climbing areas; they’re very clean. How I wish that were true. Places where I've been climbing, I find pieces of cut webbing, smoker climbers flicking their cigarette butts into the woods, bits of granola bar wrappers at the base of cliffs.... And a lot of these places are just 10 minutes from the car, yet some climbers don't bother to pack out. The more accessible climbing becomes, the more people will show up, and more people means more garbage. Well we can't control you Canadians, you know.
As if Canadians are the only ones who do this? Think again.
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timstich
Jul 22, 2003, 3:44 PM
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In reply to: As if Canadians are the only ones who do this? Think again.
It is a proven fact that Canadians are lovers of Big Macs, enjoy balling up the foil and paper wrappers, and sailing them willy nilly into their majestic pine forests just like all citizens of the free world would so too enjoy.
No. Wait. It's not actually true. Canadians actually like to use the burger wrappers as condoms in a pinch and of course lightning protection hats.
But the "pack your crap and that other a-hole's crap" ethic is a good solution. Bring little garbage baggies if you don't like icky crud in your pack.
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bumpkin
Jul 22, 2003, 3:49 PM
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aww, Changling don't go too hard on Tim... he's from Texas, can't stop himself from taking the piss... either that or he's might have seen me the last time I was driving through Texas. An AMC Gremlin with Quebec plates, Tim? Those bottles of TAB I was tossing out the window were my pee bottles! There's no way I would drink that stuff, by the way, I had picked up those bottles at the bottom of a crag and I was going to throw them out but I was too scared to enter a restroom in Texas ever since they repealed those anti-sodomy laws and I really couldn't wait until the Mexican border and and... well who wants to drive for hours with a warm bottle of urine in the passenger seat? The burger wrappers were an accident. I don't have air-con so I had the windows opened (ok, so the windows are broken and don't ever close) and the wind just ripped it out. You're on the money on the wrappers as condoms thing. I don't buy burgers and had picked it up at the crag and I thought "hmm... buying condoms just supports the petrochemical industry... maybe I'll just use this wrapper". Never thought about the lightning protection thing though. So yeah, sorry dude. I know I wasn't making things any easier for the adopt-a-highway gang (that stretch courtesy of "Young Christians For The Missionary Position") or for the state as a whole for that matter, which keeps scoring as the most polluting jurisdiction in the US or Canada.
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dingus
Jul 22, 2003, 3:49 PM
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While we're pondering the great mysteries of the climbing universe, I thought another Coonyard quote should help set the expectation bar for some of the younger set here who may not remember a time when the old gent could still pull down...
"The climbing as a whole is not very esthetic or enjoyable; it is merely difficult."
He was speaking of Yosemite Valley you know.
Oh, he wrote that in 1963...
Ivon WHO?
DMT
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bumpkin
Jul 22, 2003, 3:53 PM
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Besides which, didn't he spell aesthetic wrong?
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dingus
Jul 23, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: Besides which, didn't he spell aesthetic wrong?
Hehe. Good one.
Not according to my dictionary he didn't.
DMT
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rockfax
Jul 23, 2003, 6:25 PM
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Isn't it the Ivon who owns two houses in Ventura and one in Jackson Hole. The same Ivon who jets around the world burning mucho aivation fuel and being mean to fish.
Prolly not.
M
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gthornberg
Jul 23, 2003, 6:39 PM
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Typical elitist snobbery coming from a trad climber. First of all, who decided what "real" rock climbing is or is not?
It's obvious that he has his own definition of rock climbing. By the way, who says that sport climbing doesn't have a level of risk? People have been hurt and killed sport climbing. So by Yvon's definition it must be real climbing.
To be frank, why should we care what one person defines as "real" rock climbing? Usually we accept a definition of a word as that which the majority understands it to be. If most people commonly think of sport, trad or bouldering as climbing, then sport climbing is rock climbing.
GT
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