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jt512
Jul 29, 2003, 1:24 AM
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--deleted duplicate post--
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jt512
Jul 29, 2003, 1:31 AM
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In reply to: You have offered nothing in support of taking what amounts to salt supplements.
Are you blind? What the hell do you think the above abstract is.
In reply to: I doubt you'll be happy with any source I provide, but maybe I'll post one anyway. This one is usually good. http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1999/11_99/schwellnus.htm
That article isn't even about hydration. It's about the physiology of muscle cramping. That's not even what we're discussing.
In reply to: The article about the same subject as yours makes no mention iabout adding sodium.
It's not on the same subject. Can you actually read?
In reply to: The lines you highlghted sound a lot like shilling for the sport drink industry to me.
If that's what it sounds like to you, then you're an idiot. The abstract I posted is the postion statement on hydration of the American College of Sports Medicine, published in a (the?) leading sports medicine journal. Get a little objectivity, dude. Your outdated opinion is based on something you learned in a class 20 years ago and an anecdote of some football player supposedly dying from Gatorade, and the best evidence you can find is an article that mainly discusses clinical treatment of recurrent muscle spams.
In reply to: ...since it MAY be advantageous in enhancing palatability, promoting fluid retention...
Scientists generally say "may" until the evidence is ironclad, which it rarely is.
In reply to: Usually the kind of fluid retention you get from excess sodim is not a good thing.
For an athlete it is good. Exercise tends to deplete fluids faster than they can be replaced. Therefore, fluid retention is important in maintaining hydration.
In reply to: Enhance palatability?? More catering to the industry.
It's not catering to the industry. It's an attempt to get athletes to drink enough during exercise. It is well documented that they don't.
What exactly is your agenda? Rarely have I seen anyone so blind to the obvious truth without one.
In reply to: Water is great, why does it need to be more palatable?
Because athletes don't drink enough water. Increased palatablity leads to better hydration.
-Jay
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jt512
Jul 29, 2003, 2:16 AM
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More citations from the scientific literature on the value of sodium intake during exercise:
1: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1996 Jan;28(1):i-vii. American College of Sports Medicine position stand. Exercise and fluid replacement. Convertino VA, Armstrong LE, Coyle EF, Mack GW, Sawka MN, Senay LC Jr, Sherman WM.
“Inclusion of sodium (0.5-0.7 g.1(-1) of water) in the rehydration solution ingested during exercise lasting longer than 1 h is recommended since it may be advantageous in enhancing palatability, promoting fluid retention, and possibly preventing hyponatremia in certain individuals who drink excessive quantities of fluid. There is little physiological basis for the presence of sodium in n oral rehydration solution for enhancing intestinal water absorption as long as sodium is sufficiently available from the previous meal.”
2: Clin Sports Med. 1999 Jul;18(3):513-24. Water and electrolyte requirements for exercise. Latzka WA, Montain SJ. Thermal and Mountain Medicine Division, US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, Natick, Massachusetts, USA.
“During prolonged exercise lasting longer than 90 minutes, commercially available carbohydrate electrolyte beverages should be considered to provide an exogenous carbohydrate source to sustain carbohydrate oxidation and endurance performance.”
3: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Jun;24(6):679-87. Guidelines for optimal replacement beverages for different athletic events. Gisolfi CV, Duchman SM. Department of Exercise Science, University of Iowa, Iowa City 52242.
“For events between 1-3 h long, 300-500 ml of water is recommended pre-event, and 800-1600 ml.h-1 of a 6-8% CHO solution with 10-20 mEq Na+ is recommended during exercise. For events longer than 3 h, 300-500 ml of water is recommended pre-event, and 500-1000 ml.h-1 of a 6-8% CHO beverage with 20-30 mEq Na+ is recommended during exercise. In recovery, a beverage containing 5-10% CHO with 30-40 mEq Na+ should be ingested to achieve euhydration.”
4: Sports Med. 1991 Jul;12(1):16-31. Fluid replacement and exercise stress. A brief review of studies on fluid replacement and some guidelines for the athlete. Maughan RJ, Noakes TD. Department of Environmental and Occupational Medicine, University Medical School, Foresterhill, Aberdeen, Scotland.
“Excessive replacement of sweat losses with plain water or fluids with a low sodium content may result in hyponatraemia.”
5: Can J Appl Physiol. 1999 Apr;24(2):188-200. Dehydration, rehydration, and exercise in the heat: rehydration strategies for athletic competition. Galloway SD.
“The general consensus is that fluid ingestion should match sweat losses during exercise and that the drink should contain CHO and electrolytes to assist water transport in the intestine and to improve palatability.”
6: J Sports Sci. 1991 Summer;9 Spec No:117-42. Fluid and electrolyte loss and replacement in exercise. Maughan RJ. Department of Environment and Occupational Medicine, University Medical School, Foresterhill, Aberdeen, Scotland.
“Where rehydration is a priority the solution should contain some glucose and sodium and should not exceed isotonicity: this will require the glucose concentration to be low (20-309 g l-1) or the substitution of glucose polymers, and the sodium content to be high (perhaps as much as 60 mmol l-1).
7: Br J Sports Med. 1997 Sep;31(3):175-82. Factors influencing the restoration of fluid and electrolyte balance after exercise in the heat. Maughan RJ, Leiper JB, Shirreffs SM. University Medical School, Scotland, United Kingdom.
“If effective rehydration is to be maintained for some hours after fluid ingestion, drinks should contain moderately high levels of sodium (perhaps as much as 50-60 mmol/l) and possibly also some potassium to replace losses in the sweat.”
8: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Dec;32(12):2130-45. Joint Position Statement: nutrition and athletic performance. American College of Sports Medicine, American Dietetic Association, and Dietitians of Canada.
“Consumption of sport drinks containing carbohydrates and electrolytes during exercise will provide fuel for the muscles, help maintain blood glucose and the thirst mechanism, and decrease the risk of dehydration or hyponatremia.”
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ptone
Jul 29, 2003, 5:34 AM
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Well Jay, it appears you have that in hand!
It's nice when a (semi)flame brings out that much info rather than monosyllabic typos and ridiculous idiotspeak, thanks!
Now, to get back to topic...odd stuff I'll bring along?
I know it is not as romantic as bringing a drink along, but I like to bring a small piece of carpet (mat) along, great for changing/cleaning shoes on, sorting stuff, even for throwing around the bark of a tree if you want to anchor there.
And a couple blacktape chocks, to hang a knapsack etc on where there's a lousy or dirty angled belay area.
peace, p
ps--reply to earlier Q--in the interest of science last year I tried some epic mountain biking on powerade and gatorade to see if there was much of a difference...
My definitive discovery---
When hot and parched and bonking and desperate Gatorade made me feel better. Powerade made me feel like puking.
Probably the extra sugar or something. But my choice is now clear. Or blue, or red, depending on the day...
BWAHAHAhahahahh snort chhkmff mmm unnh. Oh. mmmm. yeah so...
Ugh. I'm way more tired than I thought. Good night all.
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wallwombat
Jul 29, 2003, 6:17 AM
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I used to go climbing but now I stay at home and research sports drinks :twisted:
I wrap a few lengths of duct tape around my nut pick. It's really handy stuff.
Ditto on a small headlamp like an Ion or a Zipka in tha chalk bag.
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enigma
Jul 29, 2003, 6:29 AM
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---First Aid Supplies, bandaids etc., headlamp,sunscreen,insect repellent,sunglasses,lip balm,whistle, and the handy pocketknife. (Just in Case) 8)
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rrrADAM
Jul 29, 2003, 3:02 PM
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'dirt'... You should check out Steven Hawkings' site brutha. I'd love to watch you argue Astrophysics or Quantum Theory with him. :lol:
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sspssp
Jul 29, 2003, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: It should be easy to check out the bit about phosphorus and bone decalcification though, it happend to me around 1980 and that was the diagnosis BY a DOCTOR. That too much gator ade woudl do this was common knowledge at the time in the sports medicine community.
So I'm curious about this. Can the decalcification be prevented by keeping calcium intake high? Or do you get decalcification even with high calcium intake?
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piton
Jul 29, 2003, 3:41 PM
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lol way to tell him rradam and jay.
can i just something here. dirt have you ever heard of the sodium potassium pump in cellular systems? well the Na K pump requires atp to move k into the cell and Na out. atp (adenosine triphosphate) is a intracellular energy carrier. building on that sodium phosphate NaPi is required for numerous cellular activities i'm a little rusty on this subject so maybe someone else can help me out here, it's been 8 yrs since college. and dirt i studied molecular bio so ask me about the courses i've had. :roll:
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rrrADAM
Jul 29, 2003, 3:44 PM
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Not trying to "split hairs", nor ride / flame him... Just clear up some misinformation.
Hence the words "brutha", friend", and the use of all the emoticons (smiles), as I'm trying to keep it fun, yet, still get the right info out. 8)
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climbsomething
Jul 29, 2003, 8:51 PM
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What's this? Jay intelligently putting the smack down? doo dee doo *Hillary sups Riptide Rush Gatorade from a plastic tumbler, pinky extended in the air* mmm, purple Gatorade...
Oh, nifty things I take climbing? Deodorant. It's a must.
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dirtineye
Jul 29, 2003, 9:03 PM
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I am still thinking that gator ade and the sport drink companies are behind this to an extent.
Industry has a way of getting some scientist somewhere to back their claims and products, and this has been true at vearious times in the past for cigerettes, of all things. The companies that make infant fomula wanted to sell it in third world countries where the water is not clean, this was another mis-adventure.
One should remember that the medical community at one time thought salt tablets were a good idea for soldiers in the desert.
At least this time you have enough backing to merit a serious look at sodium, but still, the most current thing I've seen, and it was published in the first link I gave says that you don't need supplements if you eat right.
As a MATTER OF FACT, YOU FIRST EXCERPT SAYS THE SAME THING. Liking that egg on your face jt?
Usually the problem is people overdo the sport drink and don't drink water.
About the decalcification, I found a medical article about that somewhere, it shouldn't be too hard to find again just search but be prepaared to wade through a ton of osteopouorosis stuff.
Even too much of certain vitamins can cause decalcification, among then vitamin k, don't ask me for the mechanism though, I jsut read it yesterday.
Here's a starting link for it:
http://t3.preservice.org/T0210720/FANimages/nutrition/vitminwat.html
jt512, I've seen refereneces to your nastiness before, how kind of you to share it with me. The article I linked to was just to give a source, and it did indeed mention what I said it did, and it is relevant to sodium intake and electrolyte balance, but then, who would expect you to notice a thing like that when you are so busy insulting? Jerk. Oh wait, I guess you and your friends have never had cramps while climbing, excuse me.
But anyway, about half of your excerpts contain hedge words, and the other half make distinct recommendations. Hedging doesn't get it.
THe prevention of hyponatremia is something I found a big debate on, based on an article in runners world, and the series of letters about it are on that site I linked to.
Excluding the equivocating excerpts, there are a few that you need to give the links for. I wonder if the gatorade science institute paid for the research? There is such a place, fancy that.
YOu could give links to the whole article, or does that open up the debate too much for you?
Dear Piton, not that it matters, but yes I know about the sodium ion pump, worked in renal pysiology for several years, had a pile o bio courses myself before changing to math and physics, thanks for asking.
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jakedatc
Jul 29, 2003, 9:23 PM
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I gotta agree with Jay that you need some electrolyte replacement with the rehydration etc etc
Dirt.. you mentioned that no good athletic trainer would recommend adding sodium to your drinks but here is the NATA (national athletic training association) 's Position statement for fluid replacement with athletes
http://nata.org/publicinformation/files/fluidreplacement.pdf
i dont have time to read through the whole thing right now as i'm off to climb (wohoo) but i did read down to see that it is discussed and recommended
Jake (hopefully soon to be ATC ::grumbles about tests:: )
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dirtineye
Jul 29, 2003, 9:36 PM
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Jake, number 12 says it all. Thanks for finding that.
The coditions they recommend it under are pretty strict, such as not geting enough from food, or skipping meals. It does say during exercise of 4 hours duration, which goes along with marathon running, where electrolyte replacement in not something we are arguing about. Not many people are exerting for 4 solid hours when they climb. Unfortunately for my point of view, they think it does no harm at any rate, so...
Looks like I lose on the no trainer would recommend it. YOU get a gold star! And a bottle of gatorade!
By the way, back in the dark ages, 40 degrees F was considered the right temp for absorbing water, now it's 50 F in this document.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2003, 9:40 PM
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In reply to: I am still thinking that gator ade and the sport drink companies are behind this to an extent.
That's because you're ignorant. The value of carbohydrate supplementation in sports drinks is beyond question. This has been determined in 100s of experiments.
In reply to: ... but still, the most current thing I've seen, and it was published in the first link I gave says that you don't need supplements if you eat right. As a MATTER OF FACT, YOU FIRST EXCERPT SAYS THE SAME THING. Liking that egg on your face jt?
If you could read and comprehend the English language a little better you would realize that it is you with the egg on your face. The first excerpt I posted did not say "you don't need supplements if you eat right." It said, "There is little physiological basis for the presence of sodium in oral rehydration solution for enhancing intestinal water absorption as long as sodium is sufficiently available from the previous meal.”
They are claiming that sodium in the beverage does not enhance intestinal water absorption (other authors disagree on this one possible benefit). They state several other benefits, however, for sodium in the beverage, for which there is consensus.
In reply to: Usually the problem is people overdo the sport drink and don't drink water.
You're still ignorant. If you want to hold some kind of religious belief about the superiority of pure water, that's your problem. The scientific fact is that sports drinks are superior to water for exercise lasting longer than about an hour. There is absolutely no controversy in sports nutrition about this. No "hedging," as you like to call it.
In reply to: About the decalcification, I found a medical article about that somewhere, it shouldn't be too hard to find again just search but be prepaared to wade through a ton of osteopouorosis stuff.
Before you post it, save yourself some trouble and first dcoument that Gatorade even contains phosphorus. I have been unable to find any evidence that it does. Your next step, if you can accomplish the first, is not to post one single carefully selected article that supports your position, but to objectively review the current literature on the relationship between phosphorus intake and bone mineral density (BMD). This need not be an overwhelming task. Just read two recent review papers. What you will learn, if you can manage to muster an iota of objectivity, is that there are studies that show positive, adverse, and neutral effects for phosphorus on BMD. The relationships between dietary calcium, magnesium, phoshorus, protein, and vitamin D are very complex and not yet well understood. Any simplistic statement about a positive or negative effect of dietary phosphorus on BMD will be just plain wrong.
In reply to: But anyway, about half of your excerpts contain hedge words, and the other half make distinct recommendations. Hedging doesn't get it.
It's called honesty. Nutrition is an extremely complex and difficult subject to study. There is little we really know with certainty. If you read the full text of these papers you will find that the authors critique their own work and offer competing explanations for their results; hence, the results aren't completely certain. The best we can usually say is this is the best evidence we've got. Contrast the honest way these scientists state their conclusions with the way you state your opinions as absolute facts, when more often than not, you are just plain wrong.
In reply to: Excluding the equivocating excerpts, there are a few that you need to give the links for.
Everything I posted I found on the National Library of Medicine's "Pubmed" site, which you can do a Google search to find the link for.
In reply to: YOu could give links to the whole article, or does that open up the debate too much for you?
These articles are from peer-review scientific journals. Few, if any, are available for free online. You might have to visit a medical library to read them for free, or pay a fee to download them, unfortunately.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jul 29, 2003, 9:51 PM
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Ah excuse me, I may have been ignorant, but Jake helped me fix that. You, on the other hand, are still an @SS.
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jt512
Jul 29, 2003, 10:02 PM
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In reply to: Ah excuse me, I may have been ignorant, but Jake helped me fix that. You, on the other hand, are still an @SS.
Better a smart ass than a dumb one.
-Jay
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reno
Jul 29, 2003, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: I also make "cheap-o-rade"... Kool-Aid half strength, with a dash of salt. On hot months, I freeze it solid the night before, so I have cold stuff to drink all day.
I used to do something similar... water, with a squirt of lemon juice and a pinch of salt. Some lime juice too, if I was feeling in the mood.
That was back when I was dirt poor... now that I can actually afford it, I typically buy Gatorade powder mix, and make the drink at about half-strength.
One more thing, for those that question the value or worth of "Sports Drinks" such as Gatorade, etc.: In medicine, a common solution given through IV lines for rehydration is called Lactated Ringer's Solution (a.k.a. Ringer's Lactate.) When the composition of Ringer's Lactate and Gatorade are compared, the only *SIGNIFICANT* difference is the color and taste. They are, for all practical purposes, identical.
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stick233
Jul 29, 2003, 10:47 PM
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Nice call, I forgot about 'ringers'. they are indeed pretty similar to sports drinks...
hey that was a fun thread... did headcrak change his name to dirtineye???
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larryd
Jul 29, 2003, 11:05 PM
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Let me throw my positive vote on the Gatorade. No formal research here, just field experience doing long (6-36 hour) trail runs in the mountains and desert, as well as long desert rock climbs. Gatorade=Life.
I developed a standard procedure when arriving at spring. Usually I would be way dehydrated; often 2 or 3% down on body weight and sometimes as much as 6 or 7% low (this is pretty significant dehydration). Step one was to drink all the water I could stomach. This was usually about a pint or a little more. By the end, I was forcing it down. Then I would get out the powdered gatorade and start mixing. I would immediately by able to drink 2 more quarts. This had an amazing revival effect. After a brief rest, I would drink as much additional Gatorade as I felt comfortable with, often another quart or so. Then back to the trail...
If anybody suggested to me that research showed that Gatorade was not really good in these situations, I would look very closely at the experimental conditions. I do not think they would remotely approximate the true-life circumstances in which I have found hydration to be of real, as opposed to academic, interest.
p.s. I have had similar good results from lemonade mix with a pinch of salt added.
Larry D
Las Vegas, NV
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jhump
Jul 29, 2003, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: I agree about the camel back, I also bring some trail mix in a nalgene bottle clipped to the harness.
With a name like mike the sumo, I bet you do drink trail mix :)
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pehperboy
Jul 30, 2003, 12:42 AM
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I couldn't give a sh*t about all the scientific mumb jumbo that's taken up way too much space in this thread. Here's what I know and what works for me: before heading out for a long, hot day in the alpine or at the crag I'll down a litre of water. After that I sip from my water bag whenever I feel the need. As long I'm pushing through clear liquid and not feeling parched I'm good.
As for Gatorade, my position on that is political. I don't want to enrich the University of Florida any further beyond whatever billlions they've raked in on the product. Maybe the science is right on Gatorade: do I care though? NO! :? Water does me just fine.
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wallwombat
Jul 30, 2003, 2:39 AM
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I can't believe you guys are still blahhing on about sports drinks :shock:
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traddad
Jul 30, 2003, 1:35 PM
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Damn this has been a fun thread to read. Almost as fun as watching two environmental consultants get into fisticuffs during a public meeting. Perhaps a little video to go with the citations? :D
My tip? Try to make things do two jobs. Bail cord for the chalk bag belt. Runner strength gear slings.
Oh yeah, panty liners to dry off holds.
The deoderant thing is also a good idea...a REAL good idea. You ever bivied with someone who stinks so bad that you want to blow grits?
My wife has.... :shock:
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hatice
Jul 30, 2003, 9:05 PM
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I take my minidisk player, listen to some tunes and go climb my ass off... i also put a peice of SUPER FINE sandpaper in my chalk bag to get some of the caked on chalk off those slippery holds :D
p.s. i like the trail mix in the bottle good idea
oh dad's cookies are always good..tasty and healthy cant go wrong there
-Cheers, Graham
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