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wyomingclimber
Aug 7, 2003, 10:56 PM
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Okay, I know I said I was walking away from this, but I can't help myself.
Bolts are NOT a necessary evil in climbing. We could just climb rocks that go trad, or we could solo, or we could only do routes that can be naturally toproped.
Setting sport routes is destructive, ecologically indefensable, and wholly selfish no matter where you decide to arbitrarily draw your line.
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caughtinside
Aug 7, 2003, 11:09 PM
Post #102 of 113
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In reply to: Bolts are NOT a necessary evil in climbing. We could just climb rocks that go trad, or we could solo, or we could only do routes that can be naturally toproped. Setting sport routes is destructive, ecologically indefensable, and wholly selfish no matter where you decide to arbitrarily draw your line.
That's just, like, your opinion, man. 8)
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wc
Aug 7, 2003, 11:32 PM
Post #103 of 113
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Registered: May 20, 2003
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In reply to: Bolts are NOT a necessary evil in climbing. We could just climb rocks that go trad, or we could solo, or we could only do routes that can be naturally toproped. Setting sport routes is destructive, ecologically indefensable, and wholly selfish no matter where you decide to arbitrarily draw your line.
Aye, ye hippocrates, heed the words of wyomingshagger! Unless you are climbing barefoot, naked (and providing pictures to prove it :D ), with no chalk, and tip toe across the landscape to get there you are being destructive to the environment and purely SELFISH, not Sufish so stop pretending.
When it comes down to it climbing IS selfish! The rock is not sacred... what the hell is sacred anyway? See below for the definition from www.m-w.com
1a) nobody I know really WORSHIPS the rock, they maul their way up it in a fit of masochistic ecstacy.
1b) climbing routes and boulders are not devoted exclusively to one service, but are enjoyed (or should be able to be enjoyed) by many users for many different purposes. I guess splattering them with glue and chalk and chipping the hell out of them would eventually cause them to become sacred? :?
2) worthy of religious veneration? I don't know if "fuqing jeeez-us krist" is really religous veneration... and reverence is certainly not what I see going on at the crag most of the time. And don't pretend you are not a part of the irreverence... you revel in it.
3) nope
4) highly valued and important. YES, okay the rocks are sacred. But again, this brings us right back to the fact that the actions we take regarding the rocks we climb are purely selfish! Think of everything that was ever regarded as sacred and you will find that it has been manipulated for selfish reasons. Bring it on...
(p.s. I in NO WAY condone chipping or altering of holds and I will tell your mom's if I catch any of you doing it.)
1 a : dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity b : devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose)
2 a : worthy of religious veneration : HOLY b : entitled to reverence and respect
3 : of or relating to religion : not secular or profane
4 archaic : ACCURSED
5 a : UNASSAILABLE, INVIOLABLE b : highly valued and important
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 8, 2003, 12:58 AM
Post #104 of 113
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In reply to: Bolts are NOT a necessary evil in climbing.
I said "sport" not "climbing".
In reply to: Setting sport routes is destructive, ecologically indefensable, and wholly selfish no matter where you decide to arbitrarily draw your line.
That doesn't justify making it worse then we have to.
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rockfax
Aug 8, 2003, 3:24 AM
Post #105 of 113
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In reply to: Many of the holds on Killer (etc) have been modified, but they are not FLAT OUT DRILLED POCKETS like you find at Jack's.
That's even worse.....or the worst of two evils. If they were existing holds that have been "modified" who is to say that a more talented climber than the "modifier" couldn't use them in their natural state.
Mick
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rockprodigy
Aug 8, 2003, 3:48 PM
Post #106 of 113
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[quote="jt512"]In reply to: In reply to: Chipping = wrong. Why? -Jay
It is wrong because we decide for ourselves that there must be a line drawn somewhere.
I understand your argument, but I still believe it is flawed. The Self-Actualized climber, might look at that 5.6/V10 and see how it would benefit the community more as a 5.6, however, he/she will realize that the damage done by drilling it down to 5.6 transcends that route, because it establishes or reinforces a precedent that harms the greater climbing resource.
A 40 year old route developer with 500 routes under his belt may be able to make a good decision on chipping a route, but the 17 year old who sees the route will not have the experience and judgment, and will make a bad decision. Therefore, as a community, we decide that nobody will do it, and that 5.6/v10 will remain as God created it, and so to, the 13a, will stay at 13a, rather than being drilled down to 12c so the 17 year old can RP before anyone else.
Jay, how do you explain to people that it's OK for you to chip your route, but it's not OK for others to chip their projects?? I would feel very uncomfortable about it.
In summary, a drilled out 5.6 might be fun to climb, but it's not worth the sacrifice to the greater sport to create that route.
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wc
Aug 8, 2003, 8:54 PM
Post #107 of 113
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In reply to: In reply to: Many of the holds on Killer (etc) have been modified, but they are not FLAT OUT DRILLED POCKETS like you find at Jack's. That's even worse.....or the worst of two evils. If they were existing holds that have been "modified" who is to say that a more talented climber than the "modifier" couldn't use them in their natural state. Mick
I certianly think a more talented climber could (and should have the opportunity to) use the sharper holds just fine, but are they going to? I doubt it. I've just seen too many people walk past what I consider classic climbs, dismissing them as "sharp piles." There are those out there that would argue that "the routes just wouldn't get done if they were left as razor sharp tweeker pockets that would gash you every time you climbed it... or teetering piles of choss."
Personally I wish the FA party of "Las Auras" would have done a bit more selective modification (cleaning) to that route so Jose would still be around. Then again, the route was notoriously loose and knew what he was getting himself into. Those routes are reserved for those willing to take the risk... just like sharp routes are reserved (should be anyway) for those who can suck it up and take the pain. Personally, I think the climbing community needs to suck it up and take the pain, you are after all CLIMBING ROCKS WITH YOUR BARE HANDS! But the sport is getting overcrowded with weak minded folks that aren't fit to take up the WHOLE challenge. They just want to swing mindlessly from comfortable jugs.
I'm not saying that's justification, I'm just saying that without "comfortization" of some holds many of the routes considered "classic" would not be considered so. People like to climb FUN climbs, some people find pain FUN... I know I do :shock: :D (thank you may I have another Emoticon). If you don't believe me just ask anyone who watched my epic attempts on Stained Glass a few years back with bloody gashes on EVERY finger (including pinkies) from my week of effort.
I was just as pissed as anyone... except maybe Tom... when Action Figure got chipped. I did it one more time with the chipped hold just to see how much easier it became and how much LESS drive and motivation it took to get me up the thing. I will probably never do it again. Someone robbed me of the experience... but unfortunately I think others consider it an improvement.
p.s. I may be heading to Bishop this Jan, maybe see you around.
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rockfax
Aug 8, 2003, 9:25 PM
Post #108 of 113
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Call me a hypocrit if you like, but I will file down holds that are sharp and draw blood.
It's the gray area that many of us operate in.
Mick
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aimeerose
Aug 9, 2003, 3:44 PM
Post #109 of 113
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Registered: Jan 21, 2003
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Well, I didn't mean to start a whole argument about whether or not it's right to drill/comfortize etc. holde. All I wanted to know was if people noticed that Sinks' Killer Cave is more drilled than Jacks, cause it is. Just cause holds are big doesn't mean they're not drilled out. Just cause it's different rock, doesn't mean you can't compare the two. Drilling is drilling. Those holds at Sinks are soooo drilled out, just look at the rock around them. The majority of the routes at Jack's are natural (believe me, I've done 80% of the routes there) and the one's with drilled holds usually have only one or two, not like Sinks where the whole route was practically manufactured.
I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong, I just wanted to point out the facts. All you people who think Sinks is just "comfortized" are just fooling yourselves.
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stickclipper
Aug 9, 2003, 7:41 PM
Post #110 of 113
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Registered: May 3, 2003
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In reply to: That's just, like, your opinion, man. 8)
Special props go to caughtinside for bringing the one and only J. Lebowski into this.
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trad_mike
Aug 10, 2003, 7:19 PM
Post #111 of 113
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Registered: Jun 25, 2003
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Getting back to Hack's Canyon. It made the list not only because it's chipped, but because it's way overbolted and the ratings are soft by 2-3 letter grades. At least it's not as bad as the Boulder Sport Park. That's usually soft by about 4 letter grades and the bolts are much too close together.
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photon
Aug 11, 2003, 8:40 PM
Post #112 of 113
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Registered: Jan 31, 2002
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In reply to: Well, I didn't mean to start a whole argument about whether or not it's right to drill/comfortize etc. holde. All I wanted to know was if people noticed that Sinks' Killer Cave is more drilled than Jacks, cause it is. Just cause holds are big doesn't mean they're not drilled out. Just cause it's different rock, doesn't mean you can't compare the two. Drilling is drilling. Those holds at Sinks are soooo drilled out, just look at the rock around them. The majority of the routes at Jack's are natural (believe me, I've done 80% of the routes there) and the one's with drilled holds usually have only one or two, not like Sinks where the whole route was practically manufactured. I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong, I just wanted to point out the facts. All you people who think Sinks is just "comfortized" are just fooling yourselves.
I'm curious what route/s you perceive as being wholly manufactured?
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wc
Aug 11, 2003, 9:01 PM
Post #113 of 113
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Registered: May 20, 2003
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In reply to: Call me a hypocrit if you like, but I will file down holds that are sharp and draw blood. It's the gray area that many of us operate in. Mick
Hmmm, that is what I thought you were so opposed to :? . I guess we are in agreement... although where do you draw the line? Is it alright to "comfortize" existing routes? Because I know a few classics that sure could use some "teeth" knocked out... joking.
Turd Skimmer and Pull Penis OVER COMFORTIZED many of the holds completely altering the quality of the holds and bordering on chipping. This I think is wrong because it changes the way the rock is climbed. I also think filing down the mono on Action Figure was wrong since now you can sink your finger in much deeper with much less accuracy. However there have been times when one single crystal (which will probably break after a few sends anyway) took some blood and I dulled it with a nearby rock. Nothing wrong with that...
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