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cypherock
Aug 9, 2003, 11:02 PM
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I was taught to TR belay using this technique: Pull in rope with off hand, pinch brake-side rope with off hand, slide brake hand down, lock off. Now to me it would seem a lot safer if you did it this way: Pull in rope, lock off, grab behind brake-hand with off-hand. Slide up brake-hand. This way seems like it would minimize the time that the rope is unlocked. I'm fairly new to climbing so maybe there is some reason I was taught the first technique, but I would very much apprieciate an explanation. Thanks.
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coldclimb
Aug 10, 2003, 1:00 AM
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it's a huge pain to have to do it that way, and the first method you described is just as safe. A lot of the safety in belaying depends on the experience of the belayer.
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calpolyclimber
Aug 10, 2003, 1:56 AM
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In belaying it is not so much a matter of being locked off the WHOLE TIME as it is being ready to lock off at ANY TIME. Be alert.
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jt512
Aug 11, 2003, 4:32 AM
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In reply to: In belaying it is not so much a matter of being locked off the WHOLE TIME as it is being ready to lock off at ANY TIME. Be alert.
Very well put.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 11, 2003, 4:36 AM
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In reply to: I was taught to TR belay using this technique: Pull in rope with off hand, pinch brake-side rope with off hand, slide brake hand down, lock off. Now to me it would seem a lot safer if you did it this way: Pull in rope, lock off, grab behind brake-hand with off-hand. Slide up brake-hand. This way seems like it would minimize the time that the rope is unlocked. I'm fairly new to climbing so maybe there is some reason I was taught the first technique, but I would very much apprieciate an explanation. Thanks.
As you gain experience and start to belay leaders on harder climbs, you'll want to be able to take in or let out rope quickly, which you cannot easily do from the locked off position. Most experienced belayers do not lock the rope off between moves (unless the climber is moving very slowly). Instead, they will keep the ropes 45-90 degrees apart. That way, they can easily and quickly take in or let out rope as the leader moves, and they can still quickly lock off if the leader falls.
-Jay
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ptone
Aug 11, 2003, 6:39 AM
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You don't mention what kind of belay device you are using. Some belay devices don't lock up as easily as others. If someone falls, there may be quite a pull on the rope, and you may even be pulled up off your feet. The way you were taught keeps you in a good position to control the rope, no matter what happens. Your idea about reaching through with the other hand, while ensuring a lock at that moment, puts you in an awkward position, and could even make it harder to lock the rope in the case of a longer fall.
Belay technique is extremely important, not just for the safety of the climbers in a fall, but also for the ease and safety of the climbers as they climb. Someone above mentioned you don't actually want to keep the climber locked off all the time--here's one reason why... I was once short roped and pulled off a climb by a belayer who locked me off as I moved through a long move and tried to pull rope to clip a draw. It was overhanging and a clean fall that time, but who knows? He is an awesome climber, but had been bouldering and not climbed routes for a couple years. He was nervous, and went with the instinct you show in your question. He didn't switch arms, but was keeping me locked off as he moved his hands on the rope. I was leading, which requires more complicated belay techniques, but the basics are the same, and now is the time to practice good habits.
Whenever you have to move your brake hand on the rope up or down, just slide it with your fingers around the rope. All you have to do is close your hand and you are set. As was so perfectly stated above, be alert and ready, rather than locking off and assuming things are safe.
Hope that helps a bit. Happy climbing!
peace,
-p
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overlord
Aug 11, 2003, 10:38 AM
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the most important aspect of belaying technique is the ability to stay alert at all times. even with an autolocking belay device. yestrday i was belaying a leader on a route that was made of an about 60 degrees overhang until ybout 6m off the deck and than additional 10m of face climb. the leader skipped the third bolt on the face part and fell before he could clip the fourth and the last one. he was looking solid until hes left foot slipped and was lookin to get a nasty 4m whipper into the face. i was belaying with a grigri, so i quickly FED about 1m of rope to the leader and let the impact lift me from the ground. thus he didnt swing into the rock but into thin air below the lip of the overhang. didnt even get a bruise.
it desnt matter if you belay with a "high tech" device like a grigri or with something "primitive" like a muller hitch, you have to be beware and always bear in mint the question "what am i supposed to do if he falls to minimalize the chance of ijury". now, i wasnt saying that whenever the leader goes for a whipper high up, you should feed slack, you have to know whent to use a certain belaying technique. that comes with experince. and dont allow yourslf to become lax with belaying. that puts leader into hospitals.
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isklimbing
Aug 11, 2003, 1:16 PM
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I read somewhere that when your climber takes a fall, the belayer should take one step forward. Why?
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jt512
Aug 11, 2003, 3:56 PM
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In reply to: I read somewhere that when your climber takes a fall, the belayer should take one step forward. Why?
Do a forums search for "dynamic belay."
-Jay
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climbingbum
Aug 11, 2003, 4:10 PM
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ACMG used to use the pinch method that you first described. They have now switched to the lock off and slide method that you described in the later part of your post. If your attentive then you should be able to do either and anticipate the need to lock off...
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dalguard
Aug 11, 2003, 4:12 PM
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As a beginner you shouldn't be inventing belay techniques so make sure someone sees you do this before you try it live, but it sounds like you're talking about the two-handed switch which is a perfectly fine way to belay on TR as long as you clip the belay biner through the belay loop. If your belay biner is clipped through the waist and leg loops, the two-handed switch will make an awkard cross-through motion because of the sideways orientation of the biner. Your belay biner should be through the belay loop anyway.
While the two-handed switch isn't a great way to lead belay, neither is the pinch and slide, which is what it sounds like you're using now, and the two-handed switch will be more comfortable (reduces the "pump" factor of having your hands above your waist so often) and will make a more natural transition to the one-handed slide which is the technique most Americans use to lead belay.
And no, you don't need to be locked off all the time if by that you mean having your brake hand back by your butt somewhere, but having your brake hand naturally at or slightly below the level of your belay device is not a bad thing at all.
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thegreytradster
Aug 11, 2003, 9:40 PM
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Re-read Overlords' post.
Details of technique are of absolutely of no use if you are not paying attention! And each fall creates it's own unique set of circumstances
Cypherrocks advice on hand position is well taken as well as Calpoly climbers comments.
scuse me! that was JT512 on hand position!
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redpoint73
Aug 16, 2003, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: I read somewhere that when your climber takes a fall, the belayer should take one step forward. Why?
This is known as a dynamic belay. Jumping/stepping forward, or alternately letting a few inches of rope slide through your belay device absorbs some of the energy of the fall, resulting in a softer catch. This is often desirable in order to keep the climber from slamming hard into the wall, or to avoid them hitting a ledge, outcrop, etc.
But every situation is different, and the belayer should be aware of this. Giving a dynamic belay can actually cause the climber to hit a ledge, or hit the ground. So sometimes a more static belay is desirable. Its the job of the belayer to be attentive of what is going on, and adjust their belay technique accordingly.
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dirtineye
Aug 17, 2003, 5:47 AM
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Just don't take your brake hand off the rope.
And, for an ATC, don't put meat too close to the mouth of the device, cause in a fall, your hand could get pulled in between the device lip and the rope, pinching out a big chunk of skin, and hurting a lot, and you can't let go.
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skiorclimb
Aug 17, 2003, 8:17 AM
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Belaying TR the most important thing is to a: keep your brake hand on and ready to lock off b: takeing up slack efficiently. The method you were taught is best for both. It alows smooth takes, and keeps your brake hand ready to drop. As stated above there is a big difference between TR and lead.
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earsen
Aug 18, 2003, 8:00 PM
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From what it sounds like, you're locking off with your brake hand fully extended every time - very inconvenient and difficult to do without allow some rope through the belay device when the climber falls. And as someone else mentioned above, this technique will suck when you're "feeding" rope on a lead belay rather than "taking" rope on top rope. Stick to how you were taught. There have been many thousands of experience climbers before you and I'd have to say the standard belay method you were taught cannot be improved upon.
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