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sithel
Aug 20, 2003, 2:47 AM
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I was climbing at one of the only two spots i know (minniehaha) about 2 weeks ago. and someone showed up to just practice setting pro. real nice guy i might add. he offered to teach me and my bud to set pro if he could get a climb in on our top rope...we had no prob with this so while we learned to set pro on a bouldering problem he asked if we would like to try off of our top rope. now while i like the idea of learning to trad climb while on a top rope (just to get the feel of it) i was not sure if this is the way to learn. BTW he lived in Yos for a long time so if any of you know a boot leg bob ill tell him hi....i try to climb with him as often as work will allow. anyway if you have a better way to learn please fill me in.
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emtclimber
Aug 20, 2003, 3:10 AM
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That's the way I had it suggested to me...only done one trad route so far, but practicing placing pro steady on TR and sport routes to get a good feel for it before I lead on trad. Just make sure you put weight on each piece to confirm placement and gain trust for your equipment.
just my 2 cents
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oldeclimber
Aug 20, 2003, 3:25 AM
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You can always mix a little trad gear in on your sport routes. Start out by adding trad protection in between the sport bolts whenever possible. There is always room for a little more protection. Take a fall on the extra trad gear that you have placed. If it holds...great. If it fails....you don't get hurt and you might learn something. Then, as you gain confidence in your trad placements, you can start to pass up a few of the sport bolts. It is a good way to gain some confidence in your gear without getting hurt. Climbing with an experienced leader is always good. A little information goes a long way, so get some books. If you can read...read them. If not...look at the pretty pictures. The books don't have all the answers, but they will make you think about a variety of placement possibilities. They show good placements, as well as bad placements. Sometimes, it is harder to recognize a bad placement. The books will help there. Remember that climbing isn't a race....it is a hobby that you can take a lifetime to learn and perfect, so do it safely.
Best of Luck,
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moabbeth
Aug 20, 2003, 4:22 AM
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Yeah, that sounds like a good way. I think it's called headpointing...where you "lead" a trad route with a loose toprope. You trail a rope up behind you like you're leading and place gear. So you look for places to place pro, get your stances, place the gear then clip it in to the rope you're trailing. Just like you're leading...except you have a backup in that you're on a loose toprope so if your pro placements don't hold you won't fall and die. Then once you feel comfortable with the route try leading it minus the toprope so you're doing an actual lead. We all gotta learn somehow. This way eliminates some of the sketchy moments when starting out.
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ptone
Aug 20, 2003, 5:50 AM
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I had a similar experience--I got to be friends with a guy in the winter gym, he'd been climbing for almost 10 years, all trad (Colombian sandstone).
Anyhow, he pretty much insisted on me learning on passive pro only, something I resisted at the time, but am totally thankful for now!
Find someone to mentor you- its the best.
We are lucky to have some mixed bolt/gear climbs here, not to many long splitters, so as I started to lead with placements, I picked climbs where a bolt protected the crux etc, so I was backed up.
Climbing on top rope is awesome for practice--tr some trad lines in your area (start reasonable) and try to place gear as you would for leading, or just sew the thing up with all you have, try different ways of placing stuff, examine the rock, etc.
When I was doing that (placing on toprope I often would climb up a metre or two and fall on a piece, to get used to falling and to check the placements. Even looking at them after a fall shows you what happens-how they move etc.
Anyhow, good luck. I started bouldering and sport climbing, still do some. But trad is it for me. It is whole, IMO incorporates all aspects of climbing, Heart, head, body and soul.
peace,
p
edited to say--I know I'm runing on, but books helped a bit, I tried alot, but for actually placing gear, not so much. I highly recommend 'Anchors' (John Long) and 'Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills' as great references for all aspects of climbing.
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ricardol
Aug 20, 2003, 6:08 AM
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there are lots of ways to learn trad .. and it just depends on what your comfortable with .. and wether you have a mentor and what his/her style is ..
.. on top-rope .. its safe and someone else can come up and critique your placements.
.. or you can just jump on lead .. most people will do this well below their level so that they can get used to the gear and placements..
-- ricardo
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thegreytradster
Aug 20, 2003, 11:36 PM
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Learning to place gear on a TR is a good idea, and certanly beats just jumping on trad routes. But, the best way to learn trad is to apprentice yourself to someone who has mastered it. When you are Seconding/cleaning pitches, pay close attention to how they placed the pieces and how good they really are, (or aren't as the case may be).
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xcaliclimber
Aug 20, 2003, 11:46 PM
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yea...that's how I learned...we called it mock-leading...great way to get the experiance.
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redpoint73
Aug 22, 2003, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: he asked if we would like to try off of our top rope. now while i like the idea of learning to trad climb while on a top rope (just to get the feel of it) i was not sure if this is the way to learn.
Are you asking whether getting on a "real" lead so soon is a good idea? If this was you first time placing gear, it probably would have been too soon. One might argue that it would be okay if you are on a really easy climb for your ability. But it really isn't until you have acquired a good feeling for what is good gear, and what is not. If the placements aren't good, then you are basically free soloing -- with all of the same consequences if you fall.
I mock led for a good part of a season, and its a great way to learn. Especially if you have a good mentor to check your placements (sounds like you did). Seconding an experienced leader is also a good way. This gives you an opportunity to see how that person would protect the climb.
You can also test your gear placements by tying a pack on the end of the rope, filling the pack with some weight, and tossing the pack off the cliff. It'll give you belayer some practice, too! :wink: A friend of mine tested his pro while he was learning by actually jumping off the rock towards a big pile of crash pads. This was a little gutsy, but he never did land on the pads because all his gear held!
Learn what a good placement looks like. Become natural at placing pro and the rope management before you do a real lead. Its too much for most people to be learning the technical elements of placing pro and rope management while also worrying about the climbing part and getting hurt if you fall. Practice the gear stuff in a safe environment, then you can just add the other elements later when you've got it down.
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dalguard
Aug 22, 2003, 4:49 PM
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Mock leading is idiotic.
Someone had to say it.
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redpoint73
Aug 22, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: Mock leading is idiotic. Someone had to say it.
Pleeeease, in all your GREAT wisdom explain to us why it is "idiotic"! . . .
You learn how to place gear on a real route without putting yourself in danger. Doesn't seem too "idiotic" to me.
I guess that's why AMGA certified guides used that method to teach me to lead.
No singular method is used by everyone. Mock leading is not for everyone. Doesn't make it "idiotic".
Troll.
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dalguard
Aug 22, 2003, 5:39 PM
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The AMGA guides used that method to teach you so you wouldn't die and sue them. Mock leading won't teach you to lead. It might teach you to place gear but you can do that on the ground. The only thing that will teach you to lead is leading. Getting the idea that you can lead and still be "safe" is dangerous and bad for your lead head. Get some gear, find an easy route, and go lead it.
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piton
Aug 22, 2003, 6:33 PM
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well dalguard troll
you have to learn How to Place Gear first to lead trad. oh wait let's just give begineers the idea to jump on an easy rock climb and place gear Not the smartest way to learn trad.
new climbers:"i think that is a good placement." or "hmm something looks wrong with my anchor."
so yeah mock leading is not a bad idea.
Also how i first learned to place gear is:
1st I went with someone that knew how to place gear.
2nd we rapped down a climb that took lots of gear.
he gave me the rack and he rapped down next to me as i placed gear in the rock. that way i instantly was critiqued on gear placements and was showed how if there was a better placement for gear.
practice placing your gear, building anchors and start off on easy terrain.
have fun
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tanner
Aug 22, 2003, 6:34 PM
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I'd say play with the grear on the ground first then go stich the hell out of the nearest 5.4
My First lead my goal was to place every peace I had. That forced me to look for many diffrent types of placments.
For the advanced 5.4 trad climber. Get you partner to yell out the name and size of gear and you haver to place it before anything else. This game can be fun!! #1 stopper, #4 camalot, knoted sling.
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thrillseeker05
Aug 22, 2003, 6:47 PM
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The ways mentioned are really good ways to learn trad. I might add that you can also, have someone set a TR. Don’t climb using the holds. Have some aiders and place your pro step up and place another one. You are on TR so if they pop you aren’t going anywhere. The idea is that it teaches you to place the protection well enough that it is going to hold ya. Aid the route all the way up. then take all the extra gear off your belt and lead the route with the pro that you already placed. Since you know all the placements now, you should be able to put the pro in quickly. Leading it will teach you how to get in solid positions so you can fumble with the gear.
Do the same route over and over. Sew it up as much as you can.
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redpoint73
Aug 22, 2003, 7:32 PM
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dalguard, you make me laugh! :lol:
In reply to: The AMGA guides used that method to teach you so you wouldn't die and sue them.
Hmmm. . . the guides didn't want me to die. That's odd . . . :wink: Don't know about you, but NOT DYING is on the TOP of my list.
Besides, how you gonna sue someone if you're dead? Yeah, yeah we know what you meant. So SAY what you MEAN.
Anyway, the guides had no problem with letting me lead for real. I did my first trad lead with them. They just wanted to see me mock lead first to see if I knew how to place gear correctly.
In reply to: Mock leading won't teach you to lead. It might teach you to place gear but you can do that on the ground.
Wrong. Placing gear on the ground is not the same as finding a stance on a route in which to place gear. Its good practice, but deficient in several ways. A common mistake among beginners: they try to place gear in a strenuous, uncomfortable spot when they could have just placed a piece a bit lower or higher in a better stance. Placing gear with your feet on dirt won't teach you this.
Plus, placing gear on the ground teaches you nothing about gear spacing, placing gear before the crux, etc.
In reply to: Getting the idea that you can lead and still be "safe" is dangerous and bad for your lead head.
If your gear is good and there is enough of it, then leading is safe. Sure, there are improbable accidents that can happen such as getting hit by rockfall or the rope getting cut. But usually, if you fall, and your gear is good, the rope will catch you, and you will be "safe".
Now learning how to lead by trial and error, THAT can be dangerous. Even if you climb something super easy, what if a hold breaks or you stick you hand in a hornets nest and you fall? If you're still "learning" how to place gear and your gear sucks, you are gonna deck.
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jt512
Aug 22, 2003, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: Hmmm. . . the guides didn't want me to die. That's odd . . . :wink: Don't know about you, but NOT DYING is on the TOP of my list.
But that says nothing in support of mock leading. Eventually, you're going to have to get on the sharp end and take some risk. Mock leading in no way changes this.
In reply to: Besides, how you gonna sue someone if you're dead? Yeah, yeah we know what you meant. So SAY what you MEAN.
I've been reading dalguard's writing for several years, and I can assure you that she is far more articulate than you (or me). You're going down a dangerous path by nit-picking at her writing.
In reply to: Anyway, the guides had no problem with letting me lead for real. I did my first trad lead with them. They just wanted to see me mock lead first to see if I knew how to place gear correctly.
Then you admit that mock leading was done for the guide's benefit, not yours, which was precisely dalguard's point.
In reply to: In reply to: Mock leading won't teach you to lead. It might teach you to place gear but you can do that on the ground. Placing gear on the ground is not the same as finding a stance on a route in which to place gear. Its good practice, but deficient in several ways. A common mistake among beginners: they try to place gear in a strenuous, uncomfortable spot when they could have just placed a piece a bit lower or higher in a better stance. Placing gear with your feet on dirt won't teach you this.
And neither will mock leading. The reason that leaders place gear from unnecessarily tiring stances is because they get scared and overprotect or get tunnel vision and miss a better stance. However, mock leading takes away the fear of leading, so you don't learn to work through the fear and find the best stance. You can only learn this by real leading.
In reply to: Plus, placing gear on the ground teaches you nothing about gear spacing, placing gear before the crux, etc.
But mock leading isn't necessary for that either. You can and will learn that by actual leading.
In reply to: If your gear is good and there is enough of it, then leading is safe.
What utter baloney!
In reply to: Now learning how to lead by trial and error, THAT can be dangerous. Even if you climb something super easy, what if a hold breaks or you stick you hand in a hornets nest and you fall? If you're still "learning" how to place gear and your gear sucks, you are gonna deck.
What dalguard said is to learn to place the gear on the ground, where it is completely safe. Once you can make good placements, then lead easy pitches. Your chances of falling will be minimal, but you'll still have to deal with the insecurity of being on the sharp end. If a hold breaks and you fall, your gear will be good because you've already learned how to make good placements. You still might get hurt, BTW. That lead falls on entry-level trad climbs are safe is utter nonsense.
-Jay
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piton
Aug 22, 2003, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: Mock leading is idiotic. Someone had to say it.
jt512 wroteIn reply to: I've been reading dalguard's writing for several years, and I can assure you that she is far more articulate than you (or me). You're going down a dangerous path by nit-picking at her writing.
sorry jay but dawn's above post was far from articulate and informative.
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jt512
Aug 22, 2003, 8:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mock leading is idiotic. Someone had to say it. jt512 wrote In reply to: I've been reading dalguard's writing for several years, and I can assure you that she is far more articulate than you (or me). You're going down a dangerous path by nit-picking at her writing. sorry jay but dawn's above post was far from articulate and informative.
In the case of her first post, it was succinct and accurate. Her second post was, perhaps, more informative.
-Jay
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jumpingrock
Aug 22, 2003, 8:39 PM
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I learned in the following manner:
Took a top rope course (to set anchors and make good placements) I read 2-3 books then I went out with an experianced dude and lead. And fell. I think that falling is the best thing for the head game. Other wise I don't know if I could climb difficult trad (for me 5.9/10a)
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the_pirate
Aug 22, 2003, 8:48 PM
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Obviously the best way to learn trad is to watch it on television.
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dalguard
Aug 22, 2003, 9:41 PM
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OK, it's Friday afternoon. I'll be conciliatory.
Doing a mock lead or two isn't the end of the world and if you're learning through a class or with a guide you probably don't have much choice. Just don't make a habit of it. If it's Day Two and you're still mock leading, you need to ask yourself if you're really ready to lead or not. It's OK for the answer to be no. Different people are ready at different times, but faking it isn't going to get you ready faster. It's just a convenient stalling technique.
Anyone who learned to lead by mock leading first and who has since moved on to really leading is obviously doing fine. I'm not disparaging anyone as a leader because of the way they learned. I just don't want beginners to get the idea that it's a necessary step on their path to leading because I believe it's more of a hindrance than a help.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 22, 2003, 9:54 PM
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Jay and Dalguard pretty much covered this but I will offer my perspective for emphasis.
In reply to: Mock leading is idiotic. Someone had to say it.
I would have to say that I agree with this, mock leading is for the most part, a waste of time.
In reply to: The AMGA guides used that method to teach you so you wouldn't die and sue them.
In reply to: Mock leading won't teach you to lead. It might teach you to place gear but you can do that on the ground.
In reply to: The only thing that will teach you to lead is leading.
In reply to: Getting the idea that you can lead and still be "safe" is dangerous and bad for your lead head.
In the words of Dr. Kodos something is either safe or unsafe. I am not one of the proponents of beginners falling on their gear. This is regardless of whether it would hold or not.
In reply to: ..... But, the best way to learn trad is to apprentice yourself to someone who has mastered it. When you are Seconding/cleaning pitches, pay close attention to how they placed the pieces and how good they really are, (or aren't as the case may be).
This is the better way to learn the finer details of stances in the middle of a climb.
Once you do start to lead routes it should not be demanding to stop and place gear. If it is you should go back to following routes for a while longer.
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2003, 9:55 PM
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Well, I think the best way to learn to lead trad is:
1. Follow lots of pitches, (belay slave) asking a hundred million questions of your rope gun. Part of your role as belay slave is to buy her all the beer she can drink, listen to all her stories, and soak up all you can.
2. In your spare time, place lots of gear at ground level. Practice building anchors. Weight them all. Play gear placing games with yourself. Here's one: find the three best placements, now put those three pieces aside, and find the next best three placements. Continue until you've run out of placements, or gear, or creativity.
3. Lead something so easy you don't have to think about the physical climbing. Between gear placement, route finding, sling lengths, communication, multi-pitch rope handling, anchor building, exposure, fear of being above your pro, etc, you'll have plenty of other things to keep you excited on easy stuff, especially since the Gunks is available to you! Once you feel more or less proficient at doing those things, then it's time to start adding physical difficulty into the mix, bit by bit. Have your rope gun follow you up all these climbs and critique you.
You have no idea how lucky you are to have such an experienced mentor to climb with. Make it worth his while to stick around.
No, I didn't mention mock leading. I think Jay and Dalgard are right - it's of limited value. But if taking the long way around makes you feel secure, go right ahead. Especially if that's what makes your mentor happy.
I once worked w/ a beginner who wanted to do a mock lead. The one thing she learned from the exercise was that she wasn't ready to start leading on 5.6, like she thought she was. That's a valuable enough lesson, right there.
Oh, by the way - there are plenty of other decent ways to learn to lead. I just happen to think the above is The Best(TM)
GO
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rockzen
Aug 22, 2003, 10:54 PM
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Well, I've never led before so I don't know crap, but it seems to me from all of these posts that a distinction should be made... there is a difference between learning to lead and learning how to place pro.
To me... I see learning to place pro as something that is pretty granual... you have a crack, and you have a piece... how do you properly place the piece so it won't pop? It seems to me that this can be done very well on the ground.
And further... I see learning to lead as a next step, where a person learns to make good decisions about when to place gear, what stances are most efficient, and placing gear under pressure. It seems to me that you have to climb to do this. Perhaps do this on TR at first to get comfortable... but eventually you'd have to get off the TR to get a true feel for the risk/exposure.
Just 2 cents from novice... (albeit now educated by you folks...)
Rockzen
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