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abaran
Sep 15, 2003, 5:44 AM
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I helped start an outdoor adventure club at my school (http://www.depaul.edu) and we are having a hell of a time getting the school to let us climb. They are rightfully concerned about someone getting hurt and suing the school. I know that a lot of schools have Outdoor Adventure Clubs and even straight out climbing clubs. How do you guys do it? What do you have worked out with your administration? Thanks for any advice anyone can give.
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alvchen
Sep 15, 2003, 6:31 AM
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I'm surprised you're having problems, unless you're trying to convince to school to build a climbing wall. The school isn't responsible for anything that happens off campus.
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cbeltrano
Sep 15, 2003, 7:05 AM
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can't say i have direct experience in the field but i have had to deal with "the administration" on more than a few occasions.
1. Have a specific group of representatives, the more intelligent responsible and well spoken the better. Make sure everyone has the same goal and that no one goes over anyones head with anything.... if you say one thing and another rep says something else you got problems. A faculty member is key for obvious reasons, but make sure they're your supporter.... not your voice.
2. Be relentless.... meet with them as much as possible stop them in the hallways be waiting in their waiting rooms when they come in in the morning... if they start to get frustrated lay off a bit and when they catch thier breath start hittin' them again (remember you want them to bend not snap)
3. Be responsible.... something you're doing seems unsafe then your well written (lawyer approved) Liability waiver should show you're serious... covering all of the bases is needed for everything... i was on a student government that required people to sign waivers to go on bus trips bars. it included everything up to things like dismemberment and decapitation.
i'm sure there's more but it's late and i'm tired.....
also alvchen is right off campus it's not their problem...... unless the club is school funded..... which i'm assuming it is..... oh which reminds me.
4. Facts are crucial when you're talking to the administration.. got a football team? find out how many people get injured in various school funded activities.... try to find facts that back up how safe climbing really is.... i'm sure it shouldn't be too hard. just like any other sport it has it's share of injuries but it of course isn't as fatal as i'm sure they think it is.
hope that helps.......
i'm going to bed...
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mustclimb69
Sep 15, 2003, 1:28 PM
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Go to a gym first to ease the school into the idea. Then go with a guide outside and sign their papers, with a clause that the school cannot be held a fault either.
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abaran
Sep 15, 2003, 1:58 PM
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We aren't trying to convince the school to build a climbing wall. We are just trying to convince the school to let us climb outside. We climb at one of the local gyms (http://www.veritcalendeavors.com) regularly and have a really good relationship with them. We have brought up the idea of a guided climb up to the school and that was shot down in flames.
cbeltrano: thanks for the advice. I think thats good advice that applies to getting anything out of any organization in life whether it be school or a corporate.
Does anyone know where I can find facts about climbing related injuries? I know its something none of us like to think about it but it would be a great help.
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phaedrus
Sep 15, 2003, 2:22 PM
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When it came time for me to take my team outdoors, I had to address a lot of issues, mostly having to do with liability. Gyms aren't usually a problem since the liability falls on their insurance. I ended up putting together a proposal and submitting it, and had the students sign the athletic waivers the school provided since it pretty much covered all athletic situation. We toprope since the insurance company would NEVER cover students leading outdoors, and I provided them info and pictures from Climbing Anchors, More Climbing Anchors, Toproping, and various other sources, as well as a list of places where we would be climbing, a list of emergency numbers, and assured them that I would be travelling with first aid kits. It helped also that I got Red Cross CPR/First Aid certified as well as NOLS Wilderness First Aid trained. PM me if you need more info or want to pursue it further.
Good Luck!!
Todd
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dwm81281
Sep 15, 2003, 2:30 PM
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You might want to check with some faculty members at your school. When I was in college, our club had a faculty sponsor who had lots of mountaineering and climbing experience. He negotiated with administration on behalf of the club, especially on touchy issues. He could also find a buddy or two to help guide our larger trips. He was really enthusiastic about the club because it gave him a chance do to the things he loved to do. If you have someone like that on your side, you may be able to get more freedom to do more climbing, etc.
Good luck.
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mtnrsq
Sep 15, 2003, 3:35 PM
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Times have really changed. I actually did some of my first climbing/mountaineering (including a CO 14'er in winter) when I was in high school (although this was 20+ years ago at this point). The instructors were both teachers with many years of climbing experience. Several students went on to become serious (big wall/free climb/alpine/expedition, see-their-picture-in-that-book/magazine types). Ah, the good 'ol days.....
Abaran - is your group sponsored or officially sanctioned by the school in some way? If not - when did they start limiting what adults (assuming you're all 18+) could do on their own time. If there is a faculty advisor - get them involved.
If you are going with a guide service as you suggested in your post - have them provide you with info. on their operations. Are they AMGA-certified? Guide/client ratio? Experience levels, climbing destination, etc. Check out Accidents in North American Mountaineering (American Alpine Club). They have various statistical tidbits that might help you. You could even contact Jed Williamson for more background info. Climbing accidents account for a VERY small % of SAR incidents. I think that you will find that your average intramural softball "league" have more injuries per capita.
Go in with the mindset that you are there to educate people about the risks - not get in a us v. them pissing contest. If they hold some trump card you don't want to anger them into playing it.
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nateyoun
Sep 15, 2003, 3:52 PM
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I was very involved in an outdoors club from my school before i graduated. for many years the school was really laid back on what we did, but then a new guy came in and messed everything up.we could still do stuff, but it took a lot of effort. SO if we can get through him... you can to..
here's what to do..
1. like people have said, get a faculty member to help support you.
2. find out who the "risk Manager" is on campus.. he/she may have a different title, but he's in charge of telling the university what is "safe" and what isn't..
3. talk to your dean of students because they should support you also.
4. get people officially certified in different activities.. Wilderness first responder, maybe one or two people get mountain guide certified. In maryland, they had a top rope and rappel certification.
5. eventually you'll have to do a formal presentation of your club. in this you will want to show a detailed plan of how you will make sure it is safe. this includes training new people to know how to set up TR's , lead climb, etc..
6.. start small. i would honestly start by getting the school to maybe fund trips to the gym.. even if it is just a van so you can get more people to come.. i know it sounds silly, but as you show that you can do that and be safe, they should give you more responsibility.. as in going to set up TRs
.. basically.. risk managers and schools in general like certifications.. a good certification (even if you really don't know anything) will go a million miles further with a school (and a court) than years of experience (with no written backing).. it's unfortunate, but it's true.
also. last thing.. contact actual outing clubs..
email the directors of the clubs and go from there.
if you want a start.. go to the johns hopkins page.. www.jhu.edu and look for the links to the Recreational sports department.. try to find the email of phil zook-friesen. he may be a good person to talk to.
Nate
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abaran
Sep 16, 2003, 4:26 AM
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Thanks to all for the advice!
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