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rockfax
Nov 12, 2003, 9:16 PM
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Bolts are a necessary evil. They have made climbing safer and more open to the masses. (I've personally placed hundreds of them)
But often their use is abused (and often causes access problems).
In my home area of the Eastern Sierra, cracks are now routinely bolted. It is quite sad.
In southern California and in other areas some cliffs are grid-bolted to death in acts of environmental vandalism that would even make the anti-environmentalist George Bush blush.
It is the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us.
Has climbing adopted the crassness of consumerism and over-consumption of mainstream American society?
Whatever you think of the significance of Jason Kehl's headpoint solo of The Fly.....and his ropeless ascent (after roped practice) of Evilution and After Midnight, he is leading the way to a mindset that hopefully will see bolts used as a last resort (as it used to be).
I think Kehl's adoption of Gritstone headpoint techniques is to be applauded and hopefully will trickle down to the rest of the climbing community.
Mick
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dingus
Nov 12, 2003, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: Has climbing adopted the crassness of consumerism and over-consumption of mainstream American society?
I find that the most amazing question! Do you think that?
DMT
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stuck
Nov 12, 2003, 9:26 PM
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I hope you're right.
John Sherman wrote an article a while back on the (im)possibility of "retro-trad", becoming the cool thing. It would become fashionable to place brassies on sportclimbs. The climbing economy would also prosper. Who want to sell a 10 dollar quickdraw when you can market a 50 dollar micro-cam?
I think the article ended with something like "yeah right".
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holmeslovesguinness
Nov 12, 2003, 9:49 PM
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People constantly lament the 'dumbing down' of the sport. But really it seems to be going in two opposite directions. The masses want a safe activity that they can have fun participating in, and there is nothing wrong with that. On the other end you have the bad asses (like Kehl) doing crazy (read - 'pure' or 'ethical') stuff to try and push the envelope.
Use of bolts is (and should be) a controversial issue. But it seems to me that people focus way to much on the 'environmental' impact of bolts. I would say that the use of bouldering pads (which I understand Kehl used in abundance) has a much greater environmental impact than bolts ever will - look at the areas near the base of popular bouldering problems - they are completely devoid of vegetation and suffer from erosion. Erosion due to foot traffic is a big problem at all popular climbing areas, but it seems to be magnified in high traffic bouldering areas (people jumping off and landing on the ground or crash pads, etc).
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rockfax
Nov 12, 2003, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: I hope you're right. John Sherman wrote an article a while back on the (im)possibility of "retro-trad", becoming the cool thing. It would become fashionable to place brassies on sportclimbs. The climbing economy would also prosper. Who want to sell a 10 dollar quickdraw when you can market a 50 dollar micro-cam? I think the article ended with something like "yeah right".
The problem with Sherman is that he has no faith and little patience.
Trad is the the cool thing in the UK. It has reached the collective consciousness. Sport climbing isn't dead but it is more a tool that is used to face the real challanges. Headpointing, High Ball Bouldering and Deep Water Soloing are on the ascendant
In the US because there is little collective consciousness (because of the geography), less concensus (little serious debate), and more masochistic individuals (cowboy culture) fighting their own corners it may take a little time.
I do see it happening, individuals like Kehl amd Matt Samet, and many others who go against the grain will have an influence.
Mick
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robmcc
Nov 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: People constantly lament the 'dumbing down' of the sport. But really it seems to be going in two opposite directions. The masses want a safe activity that they can have fun participating in, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Gyms. If you're looking for a safe actifity, climbing outside is a poor choice. There is a possibility of injury or death. If someone finds that small risk excessive, they should try golf.
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holmeslovesguinness
Nov 12, 2003, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: Gyms. If you're looking for a safe actifity, climbing outside is a poor choice. There is a possibility of injury or death. If someone finds that small risk excessive, they should try golf.
My comparison was between the average outdoor sport climb (fairly safe unless you are a dumb ass) and soloing a 5.14 with a bad landing (even after reheasing it).
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longalong
Nov 12, 2003, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: I would say that the use of bouldering pads (which I understand Kehl used in abundance) has a much greater environmental impact than bolts ever will - look at the areas near the base of popular bouldering problems - they are completely devoid of vegetation and suffer from erosion. Erosion due to foot traffic is a big problem at all popular climbing areas, but it seems to be magnified in high traffic bouldering areas (people jumping off and landing on the ground or crash pads, etc).
Off the topis, but I don't care. I just stated this in another post. Bouldering pads don't make a difference environmentally. Regardless of pads, or not, wear and tear around popular bouldering area is going to happen. A pad is not going to change anything when you get a crew of climbers hanging around a boulder(ie walking, spotting, pooping) all day. If all these climbers didn't have pads, they'd still be doing the damage that occurs. If you don't think so you are living in a dream.
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stizrizzo
Nov 12, 2003, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: In my home area of the Eastern Sierra, cracks are now routinely bolted. It is quite sad. In southern California and in other areas some cliffs are grid-bolted to death in acts of environmental vandalism that would even make the anti-environmentalist George Bush blush. It is the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us. Mick
I believe that the "mainstreaming" of climbing, is responsible for the overbolting of so many places.
Having started climbing in Colorado (not the sporty meccas of Boulder, Rifle, etc.), and J-tree, primarily, I had never realized how out of control the bolting craze was until I started frequenting crags of the eastern Sierra, this summer.
Indeed, Mick, scores of beautiful cracks in ORG, Rock Creek, etc., have been needlessly bolted -- cracks that beg for perfect clean placements. It is sad, IMHO.
Back to the point...
Now that Rock Climbing is mainstream, people expect it to be safe. Likewise, many bolters use that as a justification for overbolting - "We have to provide safe routes for new leaders", etc.
"Back in the day," boldness as well as skill were critical, and common attributes of climbers - this kept climbing as a relatively exclusive sport - the risk of injury and death ensured that people learned and paid dues and gained skills and had respect for the rock and the mountains. Now, as mentioned, more people become involved in sport and gym climbing (safe climbing), and go on to become tomorrow's bolters of no-risk grid-bolted atrocities. As long as the general climbing population continues to be OK with this, it will just continue and increase.
I've heard that the new J-Tree guidebook will include scores of new sport climbs -- And while I often enjoy sport climbing, Much of J-Tree's character has to do with the boldness of many of its climbs (esp. slabs).
Anyway, risk is a big appeal of cliimbing, and it is a disservice to climbers and the rock and the mountains to so agressively try to eliminate that risk.
Hopefully boldness will come back into style here in the states.
(Don't know about the consumption/materialism thing)
Cheers
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strider
Nov 12, 2003, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: ...It is the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us. ...Whatever you think of the significance of Jason Kehl's headpoint solo of The Fly.....and his ropeless ascent (after roped practice) of Evilution and After Midnight, he is leading the way to a mindset that hopefully will see bolts used as a last resort (as it used to be)... Mick
I agreed that bolts have been used inappropriately in some areas and, as you say, in some areas it is tantamount to vandalism. However I must disagree with you on the point above. You say that Kehl is "leading the way" to a mindset where bolts are used as a last resort. So I guess when he top-roped these problems he didn't use the bolts on top to set up the top-rope? I can in no way see how top-roping the route and then doing a ropeless ascent is a bolder or more ethical style of climbing (esp. in regards to bolting). He has done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that he is leading the way. Had he not used the bolts AND had committed himself to ONLY ropeless attempts on the route, only THEN could he be used as a poster boy for your ethics battle on bolting. When he used the bolts to top-rope the problem, was he not "dumbing down to the lowest common denominator of the challanges that nature has presented us" ??? If he was up to the challenge and leading the way, as you say, then he would have disdained the bolts on top and made only ropeless attempts on the route.
I am not saying his ascent is less that spectacular, I am not advocating the use or dis-use of bolts. I am merely pointing out that you picked the wrong guy and the wrong routes and the wrong situations to try and bolster your opinion. Find another poster boy.
-n
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arostecrux
Nov 12, 2003, 11:59 PM
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This is a great topic. Bolts allow countless miles of rock to be climbed FREE that would otherwise only be top roped or dreamt about. And yet at the same time bolts that are placed on natural pro routes tends to subvert the great mysterious qualities of the rock that erupted there just by chance. Maybe bolts are placed on traditionally PURE routes because there are those amoung us in the climbing community who do not want to work hard at discovering a new technique for free climbing. They would rather place protection at their convenience. So it is the lowest common denominator, those who are bolting great cracks are trying to bring the climb DOWN to their level. The whole point of struggleing on a route is to raise oneself up to the requirements that the rock presents. That is what is beautiful about climbing.
So the availability of drills and bolts and the influx of new generations of climbers who are not versed in the ethics that have preserved the sport -- all are adding up to a problem concerning what should and should not be bolted. BOlt the faces, but please keep away from the cracks with your machines.
I am a face climber mostly. But I can't ignore the reality that bolting a crack is like trying to one up nature. I climb to learn from nature, not to dominate or change what is good to begin with. We all climb for different reasons, and hearinga bout people bolting the hell out of naturally pure lines is one reason I don't understand.
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2003, 12:03 AM
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Less bolts, huh?
It would add some credibility to your argument if you posted a topic in proper English.
If you have something in discrete units (such as bolts), you say FEWER.
For example,
-Fewer carabiners
-Fewer harnesses
-Fewer people who make fun of you
When you have something that does not have discrete units, you say LESS.
-Less rope
-Less water
-Less intelligence
I disagree with what you are promoting and would love to bring up some flaws in your logic, but that would probably prove futile in making anything better for anyone. Perhaps I can just teach you some grammar and better equip you for more advanced thinking.
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noodlearms
Nov 13, 2003, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: It would add some credibility to your argument if you posted a topic in proper English bla bla bla
Don't be an ass. Everyone understands the post.
Besides, I've read your profile. While it contains no spelling mistakes, its punctuation is dubious, and its style is incredibly dull. You're no Shakespeare.
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stizrizzo
Nov 13, 2003, 12:33 AM
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In reply to: Less bolts, huh? It would add some credibility to your argument if you posted a topic in proper English.
I may be off here, but that sounds distinctly similar to a personal attack on the author's intelligence, not the argument itself. Perhaps in the realm of the "ad hominem?" Of itself, an invalid argument, Wlderdude.
It is rarely beneficial to cast the first stone in such a fashion.
Obviously, you seek to demonstrate your exceptional intelligence, and command of the english language. Therefore, I would recommend posting a reply which articulately states your views on the topic, rather than merely insulting someone whose views differ from your own.
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rokklym
Nov 13, 2003, 12:38 AM
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I enjoy getting on a good sport climb, but I'm not a fan of over bolting and unneccesary bolting. I'm sure the gym climbing thing has alot to do with some of this, but even without gyms there would be people with that mindset to bolt madly. I personally think that too many route / crag developers are the same people that are making the guidebooks in many instances. So, more routes = more people = more $$ in sales. Then, this leads alot to people trying to get more quanity routes in, regardless of quality. I'd much rather see a couple decent routes at a crag than a dozen mediocre ones.
Bolting routes comes down to a safety issue. there needs to be enough well placed bolts on a route to keep you from decking near the bottom and close enough further up to keep you from taking too big of a fall. I really see no need to have bolts 2 moves apart 50 feet up a route.
So basically, just put some thought into a route before you bolt it.
o.k., i'm done rambling..
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2003, 12:42 AM
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Yeah, my typing skills are sub-par. I will gladly admit that.
I was also rather harsh, but meant no offense.
I just don't like sloppily thought out posts going up.
If you missed the logical fallacies of the post, you might want to read it again.
I feel like he is treating the topic of bolting harshly and just wanted to give him a hard time.
No offense was intended.
For what it is worth, I don't feel like grid bolting is much of a problem. Where I see the problem is with people who cut bolts. I think it is unfortunate that we have people who are cutting bolts off routes that really need them.
I don't like highly opinionated people spouting out lousy rhetoric, especially when such will likely lead to more cut bolts.
I apologize to anyone I may have offended.
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redpoint73
Nov 13, 2003, 1:08 AM
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In reply to: Rockfax, since you say that you co-authored a Rumney guidebook (and keeping on topic), have you heard the rumour about "That 5.8 Crack by the Road" being bolted?
Pretty sure that was a troll.
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bones
Nov 13, 2003, 1:31 AM
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I'm still waiting for some idiot to make the inevitable "you don't have to clip the bolts" argument.
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chossmonkey
Nov 13, 2003, 2:16 AM
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Bolts don't cause access problems, people do. Yes, there are routes that are way over bolted. And there are cracks that should not be bolted that are. 100 climbers will cause far more visual and environmental impact than 100 over bolted routes in the same area. In an all sport area why shouldn't the cracks also be bolted? Many sport crags are choss piles the trad climbers passed over years ago for the cleaner cliffs. Place a good cam in crappy rock and it will probably pull out.
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chossmonkey
Nov 13, 2003, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: I'm still waiting for some idiot to make the inevitable "you don't have to clip the bolts" argument.
You don't have to clip the bolts!!!! To people who don't like the way other people put up routes I say get off your ass and get doing some F.A.'s so somebody can complain that you put in to many or not enough bolts. I'm not saying go bolt the crap out of everything, but if a piece of rock has been climbed then most people will refrain from bolting it any more. I find it funny that many people who complain never contribute. I think if anyone would influence fewer bolts it would be Dean Potter. While Kehl's ascent was impressive the most influential ascents are the first.
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sixter
Nov 13, 2003, 2:46 AM
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In reply to: This is a great topic. Bolts allow countless miles of rock to be climbed FREE that would otherwise only be top roped or dreamt about.
I don't intend to start a flame war, or knock arostecrux, but when did the use of a top rope cease from being classified as free climbing? I thought free climbing encompassed trad, sport, AND top rope.
As to Strider's comments on Kehl using bolts for a top rope, I don't know about the ones he did, but there are plenty of top rope boulders around here that require gear, and have no bolts on top.
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strider
Nov 13, 2003, 3:54 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is a great topic. Bolts allow countless miles of rock to be climbed FREE that would otherwise only be top roped or dreamt about. I don't intend to start a flame war, or knock arostecrux, but when did the use of a top rope cease from being classified as free climbing? I thought free climbing encompassed trad, sport, AND top rope. As to Strider's comments on Kehl using bolts for a top rope, I don't know about the ones he did, but there are plenty of top rope boulders around here that require gear, and have no bolts on top.
Anyone know if the top of the routes are bolted? We are talking about The Fly, After Midnight, and Evilution. If they are not bolted then my previous comment is frivilous and irrelavant. =)
-n
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tim
Nov 13, 2003, 4:07 AM
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In reply to: Bolting routes comes down to a safety issue. there needs to be enough well placed bolts on a route to keep you from decking near the bottom and close enough further up to keep you from taking too big of a fall. I really see no need to have bolts 2 moves apart 50 feet up a route.
This is why everyone should climb at Stone Mountain at least once in their life, to see a really well thought out rebolting job done right. You won't deck as long as you clip the bolts, but even then you may be looking at a 100' whipper if you slip. Still, it's just enough to keep the heads from popping off. A great job by the Carolina Climbers Coalition and others who retained the traditions of a historic area, while balancing them against the need for confidence in the bolts that *were* placed. I spoke with some of the FA'ists when I've been down that way, and they were happy with the rebolting effort (in contrast to their dismay about other retrobolting debacles in North Carolina, long since chopped).
I don't doubt that bolts have their place, it's just a bit depressing to see a protectable crack at a traditional area bolted by some moron, or a crappy anchor put in by some yahoo's squeeze job. There are routes that would not exist without bolts, and that's fine -- but it's atrocious form to bolt beautiful, natural lines that protect quite well without them, FA or no.
What Jason Kehl does will have little impact on the above, I think. Dean Potter is my personal hero (in the climbing arena); I suspect that I'm not alone in feeling that Kehl's exploits are far removed from my interests.
JMHO.
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raindog
Nov 13, 2003, 4:29 AM
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In reply to: Where I see the problem is with people who cut bolts.
He is the kettle. You are the pot. You are both black.
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wlderdude
Nov 13, 2003, 5:37 AM
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Well said, raindog.
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