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sixter
Dec 10, 2003, 6:33 AM
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Ohhhh, Boy Scouts. I thought this was a post about British Small Arms, the company that made the fabulous motorcycles, and other fab equipment.
I wasn't a Boy Scout, my parents weren't into putting me in things like that, and we were camping all over the place anyways, so I learned a lot of my values on the wilderness, and respect for nature from my parents. I see how the organization has done a lot of good. My last employer was involved with the BSA, both of his boys were active, and he was active with taking the kids out on trips. Both of his boys are respectful, and I am sure some of that can be atributed to the BSA.
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climber_osu
Dec 10, 2003, 6:34 AM
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It seems we may have missed the point. Scouts is designed to teach a wide variety of people may different skills. Does everyone who takes cooking go on to be a chef...No. Does everyone who takes woodworking go on to be carpenters...No. This is the same for climbing. We are not trying to produce climbers we are allowing young men the chance to discover their passion.
As with any organization, we have problems with poor leaders. Also, we have poor training methods. A week isnt enough to teach someone how to lead 12 year old boys in climbing. That being said, there are those of us put on an informative, safe, and fun program for boys. Many youth get experiences that would otherwise be impossible through scouting. There are bad leaders out there and there are good leaders. Many of the things I learned through scouting including work ethic, leadership, outdoor ethics, climbing, morals, values, and communication have been extremely valuable in life.
BTW...I am an eagle, my brother is an eagle, many of my closest friends are eagles, eagles make my best employees, and eagles tend to make solid decisions. Scouts may not be the perfect organization, but I wouldn't be the man I am today without it.
Anyone know why its Sir and not Master Baden powell? :wink:
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coldclimb
Dec 10, 2003, 6:41 AM
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As for the original topic, I never made it halfway through cubscouts myself. :wink: Didn't like being part of a group like that and doing what everyone did. Boy Scouts just wasn't for me.
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jebel_andi
Dec 10, 2003, 9:16 AM
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I am an eagle scout and I have been in boy scouts since tiger cubs when I was six years old, I have read the boy scout hand book cover to cover and there is nothing in it teaching intolerence or bigotry. Infact there is a whole lot written in there about accepting other people no matter how different they may seem.
So when ever you here about intollerence in the BSA you know it is not to do with the organisation, it is to do with some ignorent hill billy out in the boonies who has a troop leader's badge and a radical opinion.
so don't knock the entire organisation that has taught millions of people how to behave properly in the outdoors because a tiny percentage of the mass population of bigots just so happen to be involved in boy scouts.
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overlord
Dec 10, 2003, 9:43 AM
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im also a scout and i started climbing with other scouts. i think WOSM is a gr8 organization. it teaches children many important lessons, not just life in outdoors, lessons like teamwork, improvisation...
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mkjwngoat
Dec 10, 2003, 10:32 AM
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Hi, eagle scout, I also work at a summer camp. 6 years now. Funny... Athiest, Homosexuals, Girls all over the place... Good honest people. Well, guess they don't discriminate as much as people thought... Course, wouldn't hurt to be even more open... Well, we should all learn and grow from this. I know I learned my lesson. Philosophical debate is all fun and games until some one looses an eye. Or gets angry.
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cjstudent
Dec 10, 2003, 2:23 PM
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I got my start in Boy Scouts also. And haven't read this entire post because I got tired of reading the first page when it went on the homosexual topic.
I did get my Eagle, my scout troop was awesome, and my scout master was a great mentor and made a great impact on my life. He is in his late 70's now, and I'm in college but we still keep in touch. I also am being signed up as a leader so I can become certified by BSA to take scouts climbing/rappelling.
-Aaron
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jkarns
Dec 10, 2003, 2:28 PM
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WOW! You gave a belay test to Trey??!? You're my hero!
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capn_morgan
Dec 10, 2003, 3:02 PM
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The experience that an individual scout troop provides depends alot on the leaders...and on the participating members. My troop was small, usally less than a dozen members, and most of us were not too well off financially. Because of this, most of our activites were low budget and did not involve official BSA camps and such. I believe that due in large part to our scoutmaster and numerous very involved parents (mostly mothers, some whos children had reached eagle long before) and prior eagle scouts, our small troop was succesfull in being a positive influence on the lives of many of the boys that were involved. Scouting is not what it once was, It is not the "cool" thing to do. Many of the boys in our troop were kids who had learning disabilites and were not the most well behaved. But due to good leadership, most of these boys, I believe, gained something from thier experience.
Scouting can be a great experience, but it needs good leadership. If the same parents who get in fights at their kids football games are trying to teach boys about respect, you cant expect much to come of it. I believe that the problem is less with BSA and more with the mentality of the American populus. That said, I also believe that BSA should work at adapting to current situations, hisory and tradition are great, but not when they get in the way of an organizations goals. You will always have people who are involved in such organizations simply for the prestige, etc. But there are also people who are genuinly interested in helping improved the lives of the young men of this coutnry.
To all those people who have bashed scouting...I challenge you to get involved at a local level and work to improve the system. At the troop level there is much leeway as to how things are run. If the national organizers see changes happening in local areas that are bringing about good results, that is more likely to make them consider changing top level policy.
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herm
Dec 10, 2003, 3:07 PM
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Didn't Trey just die a few weeks ago?......... ....RIP...... ..........
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markc
Dec 10, 2003, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: coldclimb... ya just have to be realistic and open minded... can you be friends with a girl and not have romantic inclinations toward her? I hope so, cause if not your missing out on about half the people out there... same goes for a gay guy(or lesbian for that matter)... they can be your friend and not be secretly invisioning you in your underwear...
I had the same thought. I've slept in the same bed with a friend of mine who happens to be gay. We're friends, he knows I'm straight, and in a relationship to boot. He's a great guy and a good friend. Why would I have anything to worry about? I have other friends, male and female, gay and straight, who I would be fine with sleeping next to.
I've had female friends I've been attracted to who weren't interested in me. No big deal, I valued their friendship. If someone, male or female, is attracted to me but respectful of the fact that I'm not interested, why should it make a difference?
Back to the OT: I was in the cub scouts, but was never introduced to climbing through it. Most of the weekend and week-long camps I attended weren't terribly interesting or seemingly well organized. When my small group (is that a den?) went to one week-long camp, we discovered we already had 90% of the badges they were planning to focus on. My friends and I mostly played in the woods unsupervised for a week (not that I'm complaining). All of my friends and I decided to drop scouts after elementary school.
In middle school and high school, I participated in Outdoor Challenge each summer. We did a week of bonding exercises and trip planning, and then spent 3-4 days hiking and camping in the woods. It was much more productive and engaging, and in later trips the counselors left the majority of trip planning up to us. I don't have anything to compare it to since I dropped scouts, but it seemed like a much more mellow (but well-organized) group.
2¢,
mark
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redpiton
Dec 10, 2003, 5:33 PM
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No, i'm pretty sure Trey is still alive and kicking. I know this because there haven't been hippies rioting in the streets of Burlington and what not. :lol:
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cryder
Dec 10, 2003, 7:13 PM
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I never joined the scouts. I read the scout books, went on a few scout trips, and learned a few cool things with them... like making Igloos from a person who learned from the Inuit. I cherish that knowledge as I can make a rock solid Igloo in less then an hour with a technique that has been around for thousands of years and is now all but forgotten. I grew up too independent to be interested their structure, but could appreciate the general intention of what they were about - getting kids outdoors and experiencing things they couldnt have otherwise. In retrospect, many of the things I learned from them are totally redundant or obsolete and should not be advocated in areas that are specific to safety.
If you look at the golden era of the scouts, they are similar to other organizations that flourished after WWII (think of the Elks, etc), in a culture that was relatively cohesive in its common ideals, and could accept (and expect) morality to be infused with their everyday lives. The BSA faces a culture that is not ok with their moral ideals (even though they are a private institution) and has some tough challanges ahead of it.
I hope they survive, even though I feel that their time has passed. I would rather see them accept their fate then acquiesce merely to please a society that is not of them or for them, but is hungry for political conformity even in its definitions of a very subjective area... morality. It says something about the integrity of what they believe independent of whether we agree or not.
- n -
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hello_heino
Dec 10, 2003, 7:19 PM
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Eight year-olds, dude.
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petsfed
Dec 11, 2003, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: ...i have homosexual friends, but that's not to say that i would sleep in the same tent with them or take a community shower with them. it's all in the same manner i wouldn't be taking a shower with a member of the opposite sex....
Its not that we're asking you to change your mind, we're just asking you to listen to yourself without the filters of your experiences. I understand your opinion, irrational as it may be, but you're letting ungrounded fears shade your opinion. I'm not attracted to every girl I look at, nor am I paranoid that every gay guy I ever meet secretly has a crush on me. Everyone has their personal tastes. And if a man has a crush on you, you will know. Trust me. (As an aside, its impossibly frustrating to have gay guys try to pick you up, but to have straight women not give you the time of day. Kind of like fishing for trout and catching bass. Sure its a nice fish, but its not really what you want) So please, get off your high horse and consider platonic friendships as just that. Afterall, I don't like carrying two tents for two people for two weeks. Just isn't very efficient.
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jkarns
Dec 11, 2003, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: Didn't Trey just die a few weeks ago?......... ....RIP...... ..........
You mean before or after they're 20th anniverary tour? Well, he was certainly there or they got a great lookalike who can really wail on the guitar.
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onbelay_osu
Dec 11, 2003, 7:52 PM
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not to be kicking a dead horse in the teeth i would like to present this topic from the side of a scout who turned into an outdoor professional...
1.)With out the influence of the Boy Scouts in my life odds are i would be in Iraq right now...while for some people that is groovy and all you ask any of my friends and they will tell you i am not like that, nor have i ever been. Scouting opened my eyes to outdoor world...with out Philmont, and various other backpacking trips I would never of gotten into the backcountry and found my passion.
--and--
2.)From my experience scouts know jack squat about being in the outdoors most of their standards and practices are WAY out of date...in fact now i have to work harder to prove my self b/c the fact that most of my experience lies with in the scouting realm.
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stonefoxgirl
Dec 11, 2003, 7:54 PM
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EXCUSE ME DAVFAN -do you have any idea what you are talking about?
I AM a boy Scout and I AM a girl, I HAVE worked at Philmont, I DO teach numberous scout troops a year the fundimentals of climbing. AND WHY????
Because I CAN! And you my friend, are too shallow to realize that you and I were given the same oportunities, I have made the better choice.
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jkarns
Dec 11, 2003, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: With out the influence of the Boy Scouts in my life odds are i would be in Iraq right now...
Huh...I would have thought being in the boy scouts would make you MORE likely to be in Iraq right now...all that patriotic drivel...
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roc_klimber
Dec 11, 2003, 8:05 PM
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as I said before, scouting was a very rewarding experience. the leaders stood to the side and let us decide where to camp, what to eat and plan our own trips. As an Eagle scout myself, I am proud of my badge. I dont know about anywhere else, but scouting in my little corner of the world let us take charge. the friendships we forged and the memories will stay with me forever. Scouting is about the BOND you form with yor peers and your leaders.
Hoo Yah! to Scouting
Troop 4-0-0!
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crankingclimber
Dec 11, 2003, 9:16 PM
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Scouts, atleast at first, was great. I've been involved in scouts in several different states and two different countries. I started climbing in scouts and owe them big time for it. That being said a few years down the track a once independent, successful, fun loving organization that rocked for young guys turned into a litigation freaked gathering of kids who were not allowed to do anything. The story would go like this: Fun activity, some kid gets hurt in said activity, distraught (wrongly so, kids that age just do crazy stuff and get hurt) mother sues the organization, scouts are now not allowed to do that activity across the country. This process happend with tons of activities and made the organization a sad group to be a part of. My friends and I eventually got fed up with it and quit. This was in Australia, and now my brothers are involved over here, and they like it and it appears that America's scouting organization is in slightly better condition then Australias.
As for allowing gays into scouts, it's not the fact that every gay guy is going to be a raging sex fiend, it's the fact that sex is disallowed as a blanket statment in scouts, the reason girls aren't allowed. They're trying to prevent the exception, not the norm. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, I know having coed scouts like Australia's system was very cool. Australia also allowed gays (atleast they were there, don't know what the official policy was) and it never bothered me, but I can see at least an inkling of logic behind the rule. Right or wrong? I won't take sides cause I won't pretend to know, but I am not convinced enough in either direction to dismiss either side outright. That being said it never bothered me or the majority. Do you protect against the exception to the detriment of the gay? Or allow for the possibility of that exception in which case a kid may have a bad experience? Either way a party may end up unhappy, make the call.
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gatorclimber
Dec 11, 2003, 10:13 PM
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I am an Eagle Scout, and was in the scouting organization for about 8 years. Since I was in Florida the whole time I never went climbing with the troop. I did however, learn a lot about camping, hiking and respecting the environment. It I also learned more than that...
Stepping up on the box,
Scouting is more than a organization for teaching boys about the outdoors and nature. It is about creating morally responsible citizens and leaders. One of the hardest requirements for eagle rank is to complete a leadership project. This requires many months of work and is done completely by the scout with no leaders or parents envolved. After months of work on the project and years of earning merit badges you go before an eagle board of review. There you sit before 5 or 6 scouting executives and they review your scouting history and work and question and interview you. They question you about your plans for the rest of your life, what you have learned in scouts, what made you work so hard for eagle, etc. When I went through this I was expecting to be quizzed on the scout laws or something. Afterwards I realized, the Boy Scouts are much more than an organization teaching about the outdoors. If the executives didn't like my character, my leadership skills, or my MORAL values, they would not have granted my the rank of eagle, regardless of how many years I put into it. Scouting is about teaching leadership, moral values, and instilling strength of character through outdoor activities. I had not until then realized that all the camping and hiking wasn't the point, the point was the character, and values that those activities built into me through the experiences and the leadership demonstrated to me. This is the fundamental problem that everyone has with scouts. It is a organization built on traditional "Religious" moral values. Scout officials believe that homosexuality is morally wrong. I believe they base this on what the bible says. It lists homosexuality in the same sentence as bestiality. Since the troop leaders are suppose to be instructing moral values and character by example, this fundamentally does not work if the leader is openly gay and (in the eyes of the council) immoral. I am not sure what I think about all this. I consider myself a religious person insofar as believing that certain things are morally wrong and that there is a right and wrong way to live and treat people. The bible may say that homosexuality is wrong but all the gay people I know have no choice in the matter. They are not making a conscious immoral decision so I don't see how this works out. Nobody is perfect and I try to forgive people as much as I possibly can. Even if I thought being gay was a sin, I would like to think that I wouldn't treat them any different than anyone else. This conflict is the main reason I don't go to church anymore. The people there use what the bible says to try and justify their predijuces. They hop on their self-righteous horses and act like they are just following the bible in order to make them feel better about their hatred. I would like to think this is not what the scouts are doing.
As far as patriotism.... for the person who called patriotism "drivel", I am guessing you don't travel much? Take a trip to places where there isn't a government as good as ours and then tell me being proud of our country and what it has accomplished is drivel.
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davfan
Dec 12, 2003, 4:17 AM
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HEY STONEFOXGIRL, you aren't a boyscout, you are a girl in a leadership position in the boyscouts. you aren't a boy.. . . . or are you???? hmmmmmm
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adichad
Mar 10, 2004, 8:44 PM
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I am gay, I was in the boy scouts. I was also in a fraternity in college - where I was openly gay. I brought my gay boy date to formals and dances. What my fraternity brothers quickly realized, is that I'm just the same as them. Who cares what sex my date is. I'm going to have the same joys - and the same problems they have. The only brothers who didn't like that I was gay - were the gay ones that were too afraid to come out. All the other brothers treated me like one of the boys, which is how it should be. They were not threatened. Even the ones I thought were cute. Most take it as a compliment. Hey, if a girl was to hit on me, I'd be flattered, but taking it further would not be an option. Same way if I thought a guy was cute, and he turns out to be straight.
I am still involved with boy scouts to an extent and with my fraternity. I've also worked at all-male summer sports camps. I play on all-male soccer teams. The kids I work with love me and I take my position as being a role model to them extremely seriously. I am not going to do anything to undermine the trust they have in me.
So, contrary to some posters belief, gay guys can and do fit in to all male organizations, and society in general. Really, there is nothing different between us and any other guy. I can climb just as hard as you. I can run just as fast. I can look just as good in a suit as you can. If we talk about our relationships, if you replace the pronoun "he" , with "she" .. you will find that besides the sex of my date; everything else is the same.
Have a good day.
-Chad
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j_ung
Mar 10, 2004, 9:11 PM
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You're a little late, adichad. This thread's been dead and buried for while.
However, I agree totally with your perspective. Homophobia, like all prejudice, stems from a lack of understanding. If people would take the time to learn more and interact with the objects of their fear and derision, then this would thankfully be a non-issue.
Welcome to RC.com.
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