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johnr9q
Jan 6, 2004, 5:55 PM
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Following is a letter I emailed to Curt Sauer, Superintendent of J Tree Nat'l Park. If you have similar concerns I suggest you also let him know at following addresses: Email: jotr_publiccomments@nps.gov; Mail: Superintendent, Joshua Tree National Park, 74485 National Park Drive, Twentynine Pals, CA 92277: I am a climber and have been going to Joshua tree for many years. Lately it has become increasingly more difficult to get a campsite. I am hoping that the new fee system will help resolve this problem however I doubt that it will. I believe more campsites should be built. I know no additional camping is allowed under the current management plan but that plan can always be altered. The argument that the demand is insatiable falls short because during the week on non holiday periods it is possible to get a site easily. It may be impossible to build enough campgrounds to handle the peak loads but I think by significantly increasing the camping opportunity in the Hidden Valley/Ryan/Sheep pass area (the area most popular for climbers) a big dent could be made in the demand. With the big demand for recreation in the park it will be almost impossible to restrict daytime use of the park and without adequate camping accommodations people are either going to camp illegally, stay in town or stay on BLM land but they will be there during the day and they will be doing much more driving in the park because they are spending the night outside the park. The argument that the land can’t sustain any more human impact and therefore we shouldn’t build additional campgrounds doesn’t ring true because as I previously mentioned the people are going to be there during the day regardless of where they spend the night. I know that the construction of additional campsites does impact the land but I think it’s also important to consider the impact on people to not have adequate recreational opportunities. I definitely like the idea of not having any elaborate facilities like stores, motels etc. in the park and hope it remains that way. A few suggestions for additional camping sites: Death Valley has a large gravel lot near furnace creek that they use for overflow camping. It is not pristine but adequate. Something like this would be especially useful for RV’s as they don’t need any facilities as they are self contained. Also RV’s don’t usually need picnic tables or fire pits at least in an overflow setting. Restricting large RV’s to a gravel lot during high demand times would also free up a lot of parking in the traditional campsites. (I have a small RV so am not anti RV. I wouldn’t mind this setup) I believe the Sheep Pass Group Site might be a good candidate for this overflow lot. It would be easy to add more sites if both sides of the road were used in the Hidden Valley and Ryan Campgrounds. Also when the horse campsite isn’t reserved at Ryan that site should be opened for general camping.
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epic_ed
Jan 6, 2004, 5:59 PM
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epic_ed moved this thread from General to Access Issues & Closures.
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apolobamba
Jan 6, 2004, 6:52 PM
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No!!!! Your idea is ugly.
I hate this idea. There are plenty of places to go outside the park if you don't get a campsite or you can plan ahead and reserve a spot in Indian Cove or Black Rock. You should do whatever is required, but grading more land for camping is not acceptable.
I do not want to see Sheep's Pass turned into gravel pit.
I don't want additional campsites graded about Hidden Valley
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maculated
Jan 6, 2004, 6:57 PM
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I agree. More campsites is always a bad idea. If you increase supply to meet demand, demand will grow. J Tree is already pretty much overrun some weekends. I wonder what it was like before I climbed. I bet it was a secret gift at some point that some of you are wishing for again.
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drkodos
Jan 6, 2004, 7:02 PM
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I get it.
This is a joke, right?
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alpnclmbr1
Jan 6, 2004, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: No!!!! Your idea is ugly. I hate this idea. There are plenty of places to go outside the park if you don't get a campsite or you can plan ahead and reserve a spot in Indian Cove or Black Rock. You should do whatever is required, but grading more land for camping is not acceptable. I do not want to see Sheep's Pass turned into gravel pit. I don't want additional campsites graded about Hidden Valley
^^Works for me.^^
J-tree has been pretty much full on weekends for the last ten plus years, deal with it.
As it is, it is still a rare weekend that you cannot find a last minute desperation campsite somewhere in the park. With the new fee system it will be even easier.
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slavetogravity
Jan 6, 2004, 7:10 PM
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On the few occasions that I've visited Joshua Tree, I've faced the same problems that the author has. Despite repeated efforts I never was able to find a camp site in the Hidden valley camp ground. The problem that I saw was not that there where not enough camp sites but that there where too many bums living there. It is my understanding that Joshua Tree has a rule that only allows people to stay for a limited amount of time. So now with the new fee system, enforcing this rule is now possible. At Red Rocks you're only aloud to stay at the camp ground for a maximum of 14 days, this rule is strictly enforced, and it works. I can't see why it wouldn't work in Joshua Tree. Also, if you'd like to see a change that would ensure that you would have a camp site in Hidden valley, why not recommend a reservation system like to ones they have in other National Parks.
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iamthewallress
Jan 6, 2004, 7:11 PM
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Out of curiousity...How many of you that have found yourselves unable to get a site in JTree have gone down to Belle or White Tank campgrounds and looked for spaces?
Almost every time that I've been to JT it's been on a holiday weekend. I've been driving from the Bay Area, and typically showing up in the middle of the night on friday or first thing Sat. morning. I've never had to leave the park b/c I could not find a space, although the slot right below the the Old Woman in HVCG is usually taken.
I've also stayed outside the park at a motel or w/ friends in JT or bivied (legally) elsewhere b/c I didn't feel like looking for a site late at night, and have never found that it's increased my driving in the park, since I leave the park at least every other day when camping to get food and water. Not to mention that short of climbing exclusively in your campground, the vastness of the park sort of requires that you drive to climbs.
On the other hand, I don't see what the problem would be to allow folks with trucks, vans, and other sleeper vehicles, to sleep in said vehicles in one of the many new paved parking lots with accompanying toilets that they've constructed all over the park.
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drkodos
Jan 6, 2004, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: On the few occasions that I've visited Joshua Tree, I've faced the same problems that the author has. Despite repeated efforts I never was able to find a camp site in the Hidden valley camp ground. The problem that I saw was not that there where not enough camp sites but that there where too many bums living there. It is my understanding that Joshua Tree has a rule that only allows people to stay for a limited amount of time. So now with the new fee system, enforcing this rule is now possible. At Red Rocks you're only aloud to stay at the camp ground for a maximum of 14 days, this rule is strictly enforced, and it works. I can't see why it wouldn't work in Joshua Tree. Also, if you'd like to see a change that would ensure that you would have a camp site in Hidden valley, why not recommend a reservation system like to ones they have in other National Parks.
My man, there are other campgrounds.
I have never been snookered, even if I have to go to Belle. Rarely do I even try to get into Hidden Valley anymore unless I know someone already staying there.
Go in from the East and hit Jumbo Rocks; with the exception of a few holiday weekends, it is never filled.
Expand your sphere of influence. Change yourself before you change the world.
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j_ung
Jan 6, 2004, 7:38 PM
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I'm a few thousand miles shy of a JT local, but it if an out-of-town climber wanted to put more camping in my play area, I think I'd stand against it.
I have been to j-tree, though, and in my limited experience, a case of beer has worked wonders in convincing those already there to share a site.
Ah, beer... Bringing folks together...
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crotch
Jan 6, 2004, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: Also, if you'd like to see a change that would ensure that you would have a camp site in Hidden valley, why not recommend a reservation system like to ones they have in other National Parks.
Bad idea. This will cater to people who have regular work schedules and disposable income and discriminate against shift workers and people with unpredictable schedules.
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crotch
Jan 6, 2004, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: On the other hand, I don't see what the problem would be to allow folks with trucks, vans, and other sleeper vehicles, to sleep in said vehicles in one of the many new paved parking lots with accompanying toilets that they've constructed all over the park.
Good idea. It seems that lots of RV, van, & truck campers only need a place to park, a sheeter and a trashcan. BTW, the initial road-building plan called for a pullout every quarter-mile!!
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vulgarian
Jan 6, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Your idea is retarded I say. There are a ton of places to bivy outside the park, (I won't share my secret space here). Your idea would only lead to more crowding, more trash, more problems and more of a bad rap on climbers. I've been climbing since one could pull into Hidden Valley on a Friday night and still get a good spot to camp, and the only improvement I like so far is Crossroads Cafe. I don't even look for a spot inside the park anymore if I come on a Friday as I have found it a waste of my time. We all have to live with the fact that the monument is now a park and that our sport has become appealing to the masses. And we all know that: "The masses are asses".
Don't be an ass.
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boltdude
Jan 6, 2004, 9:42 PM
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Don’t worry John, camping fees signal the end of an era in Josh climbing.
A lot of hard-core climber bums will soon be avoiding Josh like the plague. A few dirtbag non-climbers will also be avoiding the park (a good number of these folks stay all around Josh in the winter).
There will be more sites available, unless the climbing fad in LA heats up faster...
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victorjohn
Jan 6, 2004, 10:38 PM
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Ya can always back country camp. The world is full of too many high maintenance people. When I can't get a spot at one the firepit variety campsites, I just march in off the boyscout trail and sleep in the dirt somewhere. Its pretty fun waking up feeling like you are in the middle of nowhere.
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drkayak
Jan 6, 2004, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: Go in from the East and hit Jumbo Rocks; with the exception of a few holiday weekends, it is never filled.
Bull! I have arrived late Thursday night server times and every campground is full including Jumbo Rock. The camp sites are full of empty tents because some "local" came out and staked out 5 sites for his buddies heading down for the weekend. I hope the fee system stops this BS.
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indigo_nite
Jan 6, 2004, 11:27 PM
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that initial post alarms me. the pending camp fees will have pros and cons. but it still makes me wonder if it will be a trend towards making jtree more mass consumable (like yosemite) vs. wild. adding more campsites I think would contribute to the signs of increasing development in the park.
right now, I think climbers and rec. users (but especially climbers since there's sometimes a unwritten antagonism w/ rangers or authority figures) really need to watch any unnecessary impacts on the jtree camp (trash), climbing, wild lands, and wild life.
there are alternatives to camping in the park. you can camp outside for the weekend (at least fri.) and find a spot inside sun. or during the week.
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scottcody
Jan 6, 2004, 11:53 PM
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I'm semi-surprised at this thread. I thought the writing was on the wall when the place ceased being a national monument.
Keeping in mind that the park is a mere 2-3 hours from 20+million people, I can't figure out why it wouldn't be crowded.
Is the answer more camp sites in Hidden Valley, Probably not, will the there eventually be more campsites in Hidden Valley... $$$ talks.
I think the solution is to be involved and proactive in the process, because the bottom line is that the place is packed, and more campsites will be coming. I just hope the locals (with OUR support) will be able to help shape whatever changes come.
Personnally, having been a past resident at the star lane ranch, I'm not looking forward to having to scrape for a site this march.
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socalclimber
Jan 7, 2004, 12:57 PM
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In reply to: The camp sites are full of empty tents because some "local" came out and staked out 5 sites for his buddies heading down for the weekend.
I get so tired of hearing about how we locals are always out there "staking" out sites for our buddies. Ever stop to think that when our friends come into town usualy they stay with us, in town?
Get a clue.
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voriand
Jan 7, 2004, 1:38 PM
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Campsites suck anyway. Always noisy.
Just hike a trail then walk off 500+ feet and set up camp where ever you like.
No problems.
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troutboy
Jan 7, 2004, 2:21 PM
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In reply to: Campsites suck anyway. Always noisy. Just hike a trail then walk off 500+ feet and set up camp where ever you like. No problems.
And hope the Rangers don't see you unless you are 1 mile up the trail from the road because that is what the Josh regs require (in addition to the 500-foot requirement).
Their way of cutting down on bivying anywhere.
T
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voriand
Jan 7, 2004, 3:32 PM
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Forgot that one. Heck a mile is not that far.
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johnr9q
Jan 7, 2004, 4:07 PM
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You people that camp outside of campgroungs up the Boy Scout trail etc, where do you leave your vehicles?
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soulsurfer
Jan 7, 2004, 4:07 PM
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I just e-mailed Curt. I agree that sites should be added to Joshua Tree. I would complain about people from other states taking up a lot of the sites but it is their park also and I feel all people should be able to enjoy Joshua tree. The Park is huge so adding sites not hotels like Yosemite would be nice for families and travelers who would like to camp there.
I know people disagree with this view. Please e-mail Curt and be heard either way. it is your park too!
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toonarmy
Jan 7, 2004, 4:54 PM
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At the trailhead. You have to register (fill out form) at the registration board located at the trailhead, since unregistered vehicles parked overnight may be towed. It's only a 1-mile hike (plus 500 feet from any trail).
I'd hate for this to become a popular option. Too many people doing it would change the impact and probably result in some rule changes, such as limited overnight wilderness permits. Hopefully, the 1+ mile hike is a sufficient impediment.
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