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casco
Jan 24, 2004, 5:08 PM
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Ok, I´ve heard about bolting, but I´ve heard there are bolts that require smaller drill holes than others, some that are just a screwlike thingy, others that are expanding thingies, some others that rather MAKE their own bolts... what would anyone here suggest???
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copperhead
Jan 24, 2004, 5:18 PM
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With a drill, of course. I suggest Zamac nail-in rivets for your next sport route. They are quick and easy to place and are plenty strong enough. And, you'll give the retro-bolting weenies something to worry about.
Have fun!
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diesel___smoke
Jan 24, 2004, 5:20 PM
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HAHAHA, I'll have to second Copperheads recommendation. They're great for sport routes. Don't exclude aluminum dowels though...
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roughster
Jan 24, 2004, 5:24 PM
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Ask around at your local crag for who the developer(s) is/are. Ask one of them if they would mind that if you pitched in some $$ for bolts and hangers, if they would help you develop a new route.
Can pretty much guarentee they will see yes, show you the ropes/how to, and you'll get to learn how to do it right withouth killing yourself or worse yet, someone who later climbs your route.
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scubasnyder
Jan 24, 2004, 5:32 PM
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there are many different types of bolts, its personal preference what to use.
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casco
Jan 24, 2004, 5:44 PM
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Thanx, guys, thats really helpfull, once I get the money, I`ll by a pair of cams to anchor myself on the top and start from top to bottom on new routes.
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oldandintheway
Jan 24, 2004, 5:49 PM
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Not trying flame here but why are you bolting in the first place? Has the route been freed? Bolting isn't always necessary...however skill is. Think first.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 24, 2004, 5:50 PM
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You don't need cams to anchor yourself to the top of a climb, just take a big sling, lay it on the ground in a circle, place a few (3 should be good) fist-sized rocks in the circle and some gravel around the rocks and you're good to go with a bomb-proof anchor!
Have fun and be safe!
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hosh
Jan 24, 2004, 7:27 PM
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I've never bolted a route, but I can usually tell when a route's been bolted from the top down or from the ground up. Usually the ones bolted top down have akward clipping stances and aren't as "safe" to lead as those that were bolted from the ground up. When you're bolting from the ground up, I'm told, you have a better idea of where the bolts should go for a safer clipping stance instead of a death crux 8 feet above your last bolt with a clip to make on 2 bad feet and a slippery sloper. Just a few things I've heard through the grapevine...
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roughster
Jan 24, 2004, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: I've never bolted a route, but I can usually tell when a route's been bolted from the top down or from the ground up. Usually the ones bolted top down have akward clipping stances and aren't as "safe" to lead as those that were bolted from the ground up. When you're bolting from the ground up, I'm told, you have a better idea of where the bolts should go for a safer clipping stance instead of a death crux 8 feet above your last bolt with a clip to make on 2 bad feet and a slippery sloper. Just a few things I've heard through the grapevine...
Your inexperience shows here. You will find much more runouts over bad fall potential with ground-up FA's then vice versa. If a route is developed top down with TR'ing, they will be the best cleaned and bolted lines out there.
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copperhead
Jan 24, 2004, 7:34 PM
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The only way to climb a new route is to start at the bottom and climb to the top. Anything else is cheating. Rap-bolted routes belong in a gym.
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gravical
Jan 24, 2004, 7:58 PM
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I think rap-bolting is fine..as long as you have first climbed it to the top yourself...no point in bolting a route that you (or anyone else) can't climb....also....that drill gets FREAKEN HEAVY!!!! :wink:
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phugganut
Jan 24, 2004, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: what would anyone here suggest???
I would suggest bolting from the ground up.
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jakedatc
Jan 24, 2004, 8:05 PM
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If you can top rope it then maybe climb it from bottom to top. finding the good clipping stances.. mark them with some tape.. then rap down and bolt it up.. That is unless it goes trad then what's the point... (duck)
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casco
Jan 24, 2004, 8:38 PM
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Ok, I like the idea of creating the anchor, then top rope the bastard, then I´ll know where it´s possible to clip, where it´s hardcore and needs shorter spaces between bolts, etc.
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mother
Jan 24, 2004, 9:35 PM
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i will go with the assumption that you are referring to the establishment of bolted "sport" routes. the suggestions that follow do not apply to traditional climbing, mountaineering, etc.
first off, what are your motivations for establishing routes . you should truly considers these motivations and their impact on the larger climbing community before you bolt anything.
as to which approach (ground up or top down) is "better" i would again suggest the concept of a climbing community and those who will climb the line after you establish it. almost all sport climbers that follow will care little for the method in which the line was established. their experience will not be your experience. if you bolted the climb on lead that is your experience - not theirs. likewise, if you rap bolted the line this is again your experience.
if bolting on lead is important to YOU then mabe you should bolt on lead. however, i would again suggest that the experience of climbers that follow be considered. for most sport climbers, they seek a route with good movement, safe clipping stances, safe falls, safely placed bolts, etc. the emphasis is on good movement and safety. if you can produce a sport route with these qualities in a ground up manner then this may be the best experience for both you and climbers that follow. if not, (i.e. the route has poor movement, is runout, unsafe, etc.) then perhaps the route should not be bolted/ climbed (ground up or top down). from my experience, i have found that the best sport routes are developed using the top down method.
a good top down method involves setting up a toprope and cleaning/climbing the line before a hole is even drilled. this allows one to assess the quality and potential safety of the route before permanently altering the stone (you may find the line is not worth bolting). at the same time you can have other people toprope the route to determine its quality and safety. you may also seek their opinions to collaboratively establish the best location for bolts (mark bolt locations w/ tape and "mock clip"), rock quality, fall potentials, etc. as mentioned in another reply, if you can recruit the experience of an established route developer this is often a good idea.
finally, please be sure you are completely educated on proper bolting methods before you start.
anyway, just some thoughts. hope this helps. for more specific details on safely bolting a route do a forum search on the topic
as always, be safe
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diesel___smoke
Jan 24, 2004, 11:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I've never bolted a route, but I can usually tell when a route's been bolted from the top down or from the ground up. Usually the ones bolted top down have akward clipping stances and aren't as "safe" to lead as those that were bolted from the ground up. When you're bolting from the ground up, I'm told, you have a better idea of where the bolts should go for a safer clipping stance instead of a death crux 8 feet above your last bolt with a clip to make on 2 bad feet and a slippery sloper. Just a few things I've heard through the grapevine... Your inexperience shows here. You will find much more runouts over bad fall potential with ground-up FA's then vice versa. If a route is developed top down with TR'ing, they will be the best cleaned and bolted lines out there.
This is simple why you'll find harder terrain on a ground up ascent, it's because ground up climbers are bolder, better, and have ethics (they actually care about how they put up a route, gee... what an unheard of concept among sport climbers...).
In reply to: ...however, i would again suggest that the experience of climbers that follow be considered... ....they seek a route with good movement, safe clipping stances, safe falls, safely placed bolts, etc. the emphasis is on good movement and safety...
Why? I must ask...
One of the boldest climbers in the world had to say this about the issue...
"I'm not in the business of putting up public-service routes. I don't see the point."
[Referring to one, all, or some of his routes]"If people go up there they'll get what they deserve, and," he adds with a grin, "they might get whacked."
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roughster
Jan 24, 2004, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: One of the boldest climbers in the world had to say this about the issue... "I'm not in the business of putting up public-service routes. I don't see the point." [Referring to one, all, or some of his routes]"If people go up there they'll get what they deserve, and," he adds with a grin, "they might get whacked."
Wow *twiddles fingers* That guy must be a super hero. I only hope I can be like him some day. To define life so cheaply as to almost hope others get killed trying my routes.
I believe that is called a statement of ego.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 25, 2004, 12:04 AM
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Actually, from my interpretation, it appears he is trying to deter people from attempting his routes. He warns of their danger, I don't see any disregard for human life after that.
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roughster
Jan 25, 2004, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: Actually, from my interpretation, it appears he is trying to deter people from attempting his routes. He warns of their danger, I don't see any disregard for human life after that.
Great lets put up routes then discourage others from doing them. yep thats the whole point of this sport! eventual;ly the best climbers will just sit there and stare at each other, since no one will actually be foolish enough to go and try anyone elses routes
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diesel___smoke
Jan 25, 2004, 12:13 AM
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What I was trying to relay to you cannot be comprehended by a bolt-to-bolt climber.
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roughster
Jan 25, 2004, 12:50 AM
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In reply to: What I was trying to relay to you cannot be comprehended by a bolt-to-bolt climber.
Ill remember that next time I'm 20 feet out.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 25, 2004, 5:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What I was trying to relay to you cannot be comprehended by a bolt-to-bolt climber. Ill remember that next time I'm 20 feet out.
20 feet? That would be a new wave rating of A1-.
Let these descriptions give you some nightmares of NW A4 and A5:
In reply to: "A4 - Bombs away. All known tricks are used including exhaling to make yourself lighter. This is where lids pop off and sane humans never venture. Fall potential: 150-200 feet with a bad landing almost assured. Wear a helmet for the open casket hoe-down. Ex: Native Son. GulfStream (A4+), Born Under a Bad Sign, Surgeon General, South Seas (A4-), Space. A5 - Lights out. Count on multi-hour leads with about 6-10 being the norm. Nobody falls here because you only get one. No rookies allowed. Every piece is sh**ty, all the rock is bad, and you always hit things. Fall potential: Pull the pitch. Ex: Tinker Toys, Scorched Earth?, Heavy Metal, Get Whacked, Plastic Surgery Disaster." |
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oklahoma_climber
Jan 25, 2004, 6:04 AM
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dude, you live in Monterrey? I've been there! but not for climbing :(, I helped build some church buildings in the monterrey area :D
Be careful not to bolt just for the sake of bolting... I don't know your motivations/routes/reasons, nor am I making assumptions, i just want to warn you. If it can be protected AT ALL by traditional methods, leave the bolts behind.... I'm not against bolting necessarily, but I'm gettin tired of seeing perfectly trad-protectable faces glittering with ( :evil: un-painted :evil: ) bolt hangers. Those cliffs/canyons are so beautiful, do your best to keep 'em natural.... if you're gonna bolt, be sure to use painted/disguised hangers/bolts so that the rock isnt asthetically affected.
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roughster
Jan 25, 2004, 6:26 AM
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In reply to: 20 feet? That would be a new wave rating of A1-. Let these descriptions give you some nightmares of NW A4 and A5: "A4 - Bombs away. All known tricks are used including exhaling to make yourself lighter. This is where lids pop off and sane humans never venture. Fall potential: 150-200 feet with a bad landing almost assured. Wear a helmet for the open casket hoe-down. Ex: Native Son. GulfStream (A4+), Born Under a Bad Sign, Surgeon General, South Seas (A4-), Space. A5 - Lights out. Count on multi-hour leads with about 6-10 being the norm. Nobody falls here because you only get one. No rookies allowed. Every piece is sh**ty, all the rock is bad, and you always hit things. Fall potential: Pull the pitch. Ex: Tinker Toys, Scorched Earth?, Heavy Metal, Get Whacked, Plastic Surgery Disaster."
LOL so now aid routes are the only "respectable" routes? Get a grip. In addition, out of the last 10 routes I have established over half of them have been on lead. Wheres that put your "bolt clipper" label?
*studder* *spittle* Real men only climb A5 in their underware and fuzzy bunny slippers!!!
Some times I don't know if I should take more than half of the people on this site seriously or just flat out discount them as some demented kindergarden class assigned with posting 24/7 to RC.com.
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