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dbarandiaran
Jan 22, 2004, 7:45 PM
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hello everybody, i have a new idea for a guidebook, and i have a few questions for you all to get an idea if making this book will be worth the investment i plan to make in order to produce it.
ok first question... what frustrates you most about guidebooks? in other words what do you think guidebooks do worst?
second question... if a guidebook came out that addresses these issues, would you buy the book even if you already own another book for the same area?
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roughster
Jan 22, 2004, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: hello everybody, i have a new idea for a guidebook, and i have a few questions for you all to get an idea if making this book will be worth the investment i plan to make in order to produce it. ok first question... what frustrates you most about guidebooks? in other words what do you think guidebooks do worst? second question... if a guidebook came out that addresses these issues, would you buy the book even if you already own another book for the same area?
Guidebooks should be long, thick, and funny. They should contain the history, the people, the significant events, and the stupid and absurd. In short guides need to be a "story" not just a technically resource for the where/what each problem/route is.
The problem with this is it makes the guide expensive as crap and in order to justify it, the guide needs to be for a major area. Its sad how much a guide costs to print, and yet how little you can charge for it. I would love to write a novel/huge guidebook about local climbing but in the end it just wouldn't be cost effective. And that is not to say make lost of money, as in cost effective to even produce and break even.
The best examples of guides of the variety I like are:
Queen Creek
Joshua Tree (Vogel)
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hendicrimpin
Jan 22, 2004, 8:04 PM
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dixie craggers atlas did a good job - except its a little bulky. Overall though it has all the keys: short descriptions(not paragraphs) of the climbs, a quality of route rating system, cool pics, and good topos included.
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imcd
Jan 22, 2004, 8:24 PM
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A good guide book has the most information in the smallest package. while histories anf funnies make for an entertaining read they do drive up the cost and the bulk of thed book. A good book will have good topos, photographs of the cliffs, ratings, quality of the climb, type and quality of the protection, and a brief description, the odd storie is good to as long as the book doesn't become an encyclopedia. I also really like books that tell what time the cliff will be in the sun or shaded. My fav is Skaha rock climbs by Howie richardson, Owens river gorge by Marty Lewis is also pretty good. Falcon guide to red rocks is an encyclopedia.
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scotto
Jan 22, 2004, 8:51 PM
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With the new abundance of GPS why not add a gimmick like having the coordinates for hard to find places to climb. Hand drawn pictures often leave much to be desired as far as where you are at in relation to the crag - but if you had a GPS there would be no question. I have one and when I go to new places I mark in my guidebook the coordinates so the next time I go I can go directly to where I was before.
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petsfed
Jan 22, 2004, 8:58 PM
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A little history, some funny stories, and a route quality note would be grand. Also, if possible, a note about how crowded a route can be in terms of how good the route is. Sure, Kim at Vedauwoo is one of the most popular routes in terms of shear numbers of people climbing it, but there are so many higher quality routes, closer to the road, that don't see half the numbers Kim does. Check out the Rossiter guides to the Boulder Area, the climbing guide to Southwest Utah, Western Sloper (Rifle, etc.), and the new Vedauwoo book for good examples of what I like in a guidebook.
To answer your second question, if I already have a guidebook, and there aren't any additional areas or a large number of new routes in the new book, I won't buy the new one. An other thing I look for is locals writing the guidebook. I hate it when people from other areas deign to be local experts and come up, rename routes, and write guidebooks. Must be a Wyoming thing.
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fixedpin
Jan 22, 2004, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: With the new abundance of GPS why not add a gimmick like having the coordinates for hard to find places to climb. .....I have one and when I go to new places I mark in my guidebook the coordinates so the next time I go I can go directly to where I was before.
GPS is truely a "gimmick" for most guidebooks. If you need to use a GPS to find your way back to an area you have already visited, it seems likely you were so busy looking at the GPS (maybe logging "way points") that you didn't take the time to look around and notice the landmarks.
Except for long crosscountry travel, GPS deadens the senses and ability to navigate.
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scotto
Jan 23, 2004, 9:29 PM
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I was thinking more along the line of finding a place for the first time - anybody out there ever try to use "Hidden Treasures of the San Bernardino Mtns?" That book had directions like "turn at the little bush" and "after the old guy with a red hat make a left" All of the areas, with a few exceptions, were very obscure and difficult to find. In a book like this it would have been nice to have some GPS numbers to know get you closer to where you needed to be.
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afiveonbelay
Jan 23, 2004, 9:35 PM
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approaches, descents, landmarks
loose leaf format so you can take a page out to copy the topo and take it with you -??- just a thought
maybe an even more e-based guidebook than supertopo, where you can review individual topos, tons of submitted photos and then download a copy. Revenue source -??- subscription ? pay-per-topo ? pay-per-crag area? ie if I want obed I don't want to drag around foster falls or lost wall.
crappy bindings and non-weather proof covers
being too big and thick ie dixie craggers atlas, carrying that sucker up the T-wall approach is some serious poundage
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dbarandiaran
Jan 25, 2004, 1:59 AM
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okay thats all good feedback, but hardly anyone has answered my second question, which is really the more important of the two in my mind.
the idea i have i think could change the way guidebooks are made, and as such, redoing areas already covered by existing guidebooks could and should be done. besides, most of the areas around me have pretty good coverage, except for perhaps the grey rock area, the existing guidebook sucks, i don't think i would ever buy it
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roughster
Jan 25, 2004, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: okay thats all good feedback, but hardly anyone has answered my second question, which is really the more important of the two in my mind. the idea i have i think could change the way guidebooks are made, and as such, redoing areas already covered by existing guidebooks could and should be done. besides, most of the areas around me have pretty good coverage, except for perhaps the grey rock area, the existing guidebook sucks, i don't think i would ever buy it
If you think it sucks, by all means, give it a go, but I would talk to the original guidebook author and see what they think. If the original author was the developer, you may want to consider not doing it Instead offer to help them. Many times the original developer puts up the guidebook and then turns around and socks anything they make off it back into the area for imrovements or new routes. Snaking them on the guidebook could very well be shooting yourself in your own foot so to speak.
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collegekid
Jan 25, 2004, 2:24 AM
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I think "ocean's eleven" is a good example of how a guidebook should be...has some interesting stories to read, along with good route descriptions, however isn't too big.
"ok first question... what frustrates you most about guidebooks? in other words what do you think guidebooks do worst? "
instructions for routefinding.
"second question... if a guidebook came out that addresses these issues, would you buy the book even if you already own another book for the same area? "
no, unless it has more routes listed, and the old guidebook was so horrible that it was worthless.
One aspect I like in a guidebook is a listing of all routes included in the guide, sorted by grade, as an index in the back. Either this, or if the book covers a large number of routes, a separate route index for each "area" or section. This way, a 5.10 climber who wants to try out some 5.10c's can find every single 5.10c the particular area has to offer. Very convenient.
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scubasnyder
Jan 25, 2004, 2:34 AM
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lots of pictures of the routes and how to get to the areas gps coords for the route would be nice too especially at boulder areas
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whipper
Jan 25, 2004, 3:21 AM
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yes, I would buy it for sure but then I know you and so my vote may not count. glad to see you are doing more research, I hope it gets you some good ideas, let me know when you want to go do some field work.
Cota
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simplistic
Jan 25, 2004, 5:33 AM
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I agree with many of the previous posts, books with the full package, routes, stories,history, local issues, some comedy, quotes and solid break down of quality climbs is key, in my opinion with my level of experience i consider the j-tree, squamish, and smith to have good books, the only other thing i think that books could do is combine the traditional guidebook with online sources, for example, publish a book, charge a few extra bucks have all the routes on line and as a book owner you would be entitled to download disposable copies of the routes for no additional charge(i am not sure how this could be done, but its an idea) so that I would never have to contemplate bringing the guidebook on a new climb in the parking lot again. I could leave it in its bible like state and still be comforted by the fact that I would not find myself on the wrong route in a strange land wishing like hell i carried my g-book. This would also save me from having to pay for the already available down loads. It would be the best of both worlds. Cheers.
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oklahoma_climber
Jan 25, 2004, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: Guidebooks should be long, thick, and funny. They should contain the history, the people, the significant events, and the stupid and absurd. In short guides need to be a "story" not just a technically resource for the where/what each problem/route is.
EXACTLY. If I want a topo with numbers on it, I can get that myself. The best example I've ever seen is Chuch Lohn's Oklahoma Climber's Guide. If you can find it (out of print?), its worth reading through even if you don't live/climb in the sooner state. Each area is photographed instead of drawn; each route has instructions and commentary, often listing the setter or history of the names; suggestions on camping/lodging/food/local contacts/stores etc. for each crag; a check list of ALL climbs in the back to keep track of your work; and plenty of margin space for your own comments/notes/dates! I wish he would write EVERY guidebook I read.
p.s.
For those of you who just went "Climbing? Oklahoma? Is he serious?" Oh yeah. Some of the best (if not THE best) single pitch granite in US (wichita mountain wildlife refuge): hundreds, if not thousands of routes. 5.6 to 5.13a. A0-A4. Plus a fantastic limestone bouldering crag in Tulsa (Chandler Park): V0-V10, TR to 5.10
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hazael
Jan 25, 2004, 6:06 AM
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I would love a COMPLETE guide with lots of pics to recognize well the route I want to climb. The grade on the route, the name, and a small description or history of it would be great!
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tripperjm
Jan 25, 2004, 1:32 PM
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In reply to: A little history, some funny stories, and a route quality note would be grand. Also, if possible, a note about how crowded a route can be in terms of how good the route is. An other thing I look for is locals writing the guidebook. I hate it when people from other areas deign to be local experts and come up, rename routes, and write guidebooks. In reply to: Must be a Wyoming thing. |
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rockfax
Jan 25, 2004, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: hello everybody, i have a new idea for a guidebook, and i h
Some great ideas here from the two leading guidebook publishers in the world:
http://www.rockfax.com/
http://www.supertopo.com/
Both feature excellent and meticulous content, great maps, lots of action photos.....first ascent info....graded lists
Also...both do print and online guides.
Rockfax UK now produce only color guidebooks.
Both have route databases online that all can contribute to.
........and lots of other innovations.
Mick
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brutusofwyde
Jan 25, 2004, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: I was thinking more along the line of finding a place for the first time - anybody out there ever try to use "Hidden Treasures of the San Bernardino Mtns?"
Yes, great book.
What I do is get Pat Brennan to lead me around to his favorite spots. Then there's no problem finding the places.
Brutus
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rivetladder
Jan 25, 2004, 9:43 PM
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In reply to: The best example I've ever seen is Chuch Lohn's Oklahoma Climber's Guide. If you can find it (out of print?), its worth reading through even if you don't live/climb in the sooner state.
some caveats/warnings from chuck's book.
" ... I blended in a little of my own sick humor into the text. I just hope that I havent offended anyone to the point where they want to hunt me down and kill me."
"we would like to apologize to any women, minorities, cats, dogs, sheep or tourons who may be offended by a few of the route names."
"Fifteen years ago I would have rather been strapped naked to a sappy tree in the city park than to be caught on a top rope line .. But today, it seems like everyone's doing it. So in an attempt to "be modern" I will grudingly list the best top rope areas."
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scotto
Jan 26, 2004, 8:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I was thinking more along the line of finding a place for the first time - anybody out there ever try to use "Hidden Treasures of the San Bernardino Mtns?" Yes, great book. What I do is get Pat Brennan to lead me around to his favorite spots. Then there's no problem finding the places. Brutus
Yeah that would be nice - not knockin on Pat just over exaggerating the "hidden" part of the title to make my point. We really had a hard time finding some of the rocks - it's not like j-tree where you can see most formations for quite some distance.
p.s. next time you see pat tell him add on the first page that you now need a wilderness permit to park anywhere in the San B Mtns - Mr. Ranger was more than happy to write a ticket for me.....
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escale
Feb 4, 2004, 7:54 PM
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I know this is outside of the context of this thread, but you all seem to have good comments about what you want to see in a guide books in general.
I added a new area in my state called Porvenir Canyon. Here is the link:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=7183
I know still need to post some pictures, weather, sections and route info and complete this, but my question is: I used a simple format for the directions to the area using GPS. What do you think of this directions format?
I didn't want to start a new thread because trolls tend to jump quickly on it and bash new thoughts quickly, when someone is really trying to do something helpful to the community. Thanks for your input.
---Escale
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brianinslc
Feb 4, 2004, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: I know still need to post some pictures, weather, sections and route info and complete this, but my question is: I used a simple format for the directions to the area using GPS. What do you think of this directions format?
Well, since I don't have or use a GPS, I don't like them...
Be much simpler to just state: at 1.4 miles take a left, etc. Easier to keep track of whilst driving than tryin' to peer into a GPS.
Listing major features and distance to/from makes it nice, too.
Also, if you can reference the area, say, on a 7.5 minute or 15 minute quad, then that really helps. Like, 3.7 miles NNW from Fartknocker Springs. Or, tall west facing wall approximately 11.4 miles up Notellem Gulch. If folks can find where the place is to start with on a map, then sometimes directions aren't as necessary.
Brian in SLC
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powpierre
Feb 4, 2004, 9:14 PM
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All the above suggestions are good; photos, topos, do not ignore descents they can be half the route. I think the guidebook should be for the visitor climber not really the local so they need more information that a local will want.
Second question is a definate yes. If it is better written/ organized I will buy it and have ie.Williams over Swain in the gunks, Cater over Thompson at the New, Supertopo over anything in Yosemite and red rocks. The last example is a select for the area but it is better for the routes covered.
Some of the best guides are the Mentz for Arapiles and Grampians and Wasatch guide.
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