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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 3:51 AM
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Here's a n00b ascending question for ya.
It's time again for the gym I work at's annual comp, which means I get to do a good deal of route setting on now holdless walls.
Anyway, I'm looking to adopt a more efficient way to jug up the top-ropes than the system I currently use, consisting of two ascenders and a gri-gri (self belay). See below.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~wray0016/system.jpg
It works fine and all, I'm just curious if there's a more efficient way anybody knows. Jugging on these top-ropes like this is almost like running on a treadmill, and every movement up the rope needs three movements (moving two ascenders up, then pulling slack through the gri-gri). The top-ropes have to remain top-ropes (no fixing the ropes).
Another method I've done is using bolt hangers welded onto screw bolts, then actually aiding directly up the wall. Rather slow, but works.
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alpinelynx
Feb 11, 2004, 4:01 AM
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Thats the method I used when I had to set routes. Kind of a pain when dealing with steep walls... I resorted to hooks on a couple of occasions (but I wanted to hook my way up the wall for fun, what can I say?)
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moeman
Feb 11, 2004, 4:11 AM
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Why can't you anchor one end of the line to the ground?
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 4:13 AM
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There's nothing to anchor to.
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tarzan420
Feb 11, 2004, 4:22 AM
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That's the same way I jugged last time (albiet with one end of the rope fixed), with one exception - why two ascenders? I just use one (actually just a prussik or other friction knot) in combination with the gri-gri.
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smellyhippie
Feb 11, 2004, 4:24 AM
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I'm not sure this is "better", just different. I've never tried it, just racking my brain for alternatives...
I'm pretty sure you can use prusiks on double ropes...that is, one prusik around both strands of TR. I think I remember trying this out of curiosity a couple years ago just to see if it works, and I think it did...
To back it up, I suppose you could just tie an overhand in both ropes underneath you, and clip a biner into the loop(s) for extra security.
Good luck, no matter what system you go with.
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 4:24 AM
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I use two ascenders because one of the ascenders holds a heavyish bucket of holds.
Can be easily done with one, but the number of ascenders makes essentially no difference.
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jackflash
Feb 11, 2004, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: I'm pretty sure you can use prusiks on double ropes...that is, one prusik around both strands of TR. I think I remember trying this out of curiosity a couple years ago just to see if it works, and I think it did...
That would work, but then you couldn't use the gri-gri (without some difficulty) once you got to the area of the route you needed to set: it only takes one strand. A gri-gri is really nice to have if you're trying moves over and over again to get the holds right.
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deleted
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Feb 11, 2004, 4:38 AM
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Just take one of the jugs off...put your gri gri brake hand line through a biner off the top jug. duh
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jackflash
Feb 11, 2004, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: I use two ascenders because one of the ascenders holds a heavyish bucket of holds.
If I need to jug to set a route, I use a friction knot and a gri-gri like tarzan mentioned, although having an ascender instead of the knot would be preferable. Instead of pulling the holds up with me as I go, they're tied to a big box at the end of the rope. Get to where you need to be, then pull 'em up and clip them to a hanger on the wall.
Shame about not being able to fix the rope...
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: Just take one of the jugs off...put your gri gri brake line through a biner off the top jug. duh
However, that isn't going to make the system more efficient.
I'm only jugging with one ascender, the other is for cargo.
Duh.
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Feb 11, 2004, 4:47 AM
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Yes it will...if you read my post you'll see that it will.
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 4:49 AM
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I'm not talking about mechanical advantge/efficiency/etc, I just talking about speed. As in, "I can do more routes in a given time" efficiency.
Either that or somehow I'm missing something in your post.
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vegastradguy
Feb 11, 2004, 5:23 AM
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screw a pair of bolt hangers to the lower portion of the wall. anchor the rope to that using a cordlette and a locking carabiner.
now, set up a frog system on the other side of the line. or just use a single ascender and a grigri along with a daisy and a aider.
this is how i used to set routes up in the gym all the time. easy and quick...and you dont have to deal with resetting the TR when youre done. just unclip the rope.
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 5:27 AM
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Heh, that was extremely obvious.
However, it depends on the trustability of those bolt hangers at the bottom. Doubt there to be too much of a problem with that....hmm...
Thanks a bunch.
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vegastradguy
Feb 11, 2004, 5:40 AM
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no problem.
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grayhghost
Feb 11, 2004, 5:58 AM
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Vegastradguys suggestion is truley terrifying, the t-nuts (not screw thingeys) are not meant to be used with bolts, let alone as a safety measure. I have torn a t-nut straight through 3/4" plywood with a dyno to a jug (jug came out with a 3"x3" piece of plywood). I would set an easy (5.5) route up the wall and then set the rest from the top down using an ATC which with thick gym ropes has more than enough friction, and you can loop it around your leg to stop and work with both hands.
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ikellen
Feb 11, 2004, 6:00 AM
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Excuse my possible n00bness on this one, but why have the ascenders? Could you just have the grigri and maybe a prussik as a stopper?
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 6:08 AM
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That's the reason I had some concern about the bolts, however this wall isn't a 3/4" plywood construction. Quite a bit more stout. If you ripped a t-nut through with a dyno, I'd say the wall might have had some issues beyond t-nuts and plywood (perhaps poorly placed t-nuts and bad plywood). Vegastradguy's suggestion does speak of equalizing many points so a single tnut isn't stressed, but I'm still leery about it should that one point pull (causing me to plummet, of course).
In any case, point taken.
The setting of a 5.5 route up the wall and then setting top down is sort of a chicken-and-egg problem. You'd still have to set a route without the benefit of stuff on the wall to use.
Fixing one end of the rope still seems to be the proper way for a more efficient method.
Meh, I just might stick with the way I do it now. Has worked for me quite nicely.
ikellen:
Why have ascenders? Well, other methods for ascending rope using various knots, etc, exist, but ascenders are user-friendly and make life easier when jugging.
Using just a gri-gri and a stopper knot works, but to ascend you'd be pulling on the rope by hand (bat-man style). With the ascenders you get a nice fat handle to pull on, and they hold the rope for you as you pull the slack through the gri-gri. Remember, I'm setting routes for a comp, meaning the walls have been stripped. There are no holds on the wall to use.
The gym's got'em, why not use'em.
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timpanogos
Feb 11, 2004, 6:18 AM
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Brian,
Does you gym have fixed bolts every 5 feet or so, starting about 10' up?
(Based on metal plates at these given distances behind the wall)
If so, tie a locker on one end of the top rope, climb up and clip the first bolt with it. Pull the slack out, making sure the biner is pulling up and is not cross loaded. You now have a fixed toprope. Don't bother tieing into the other end, just jugs/grigri will be fine.
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 6:21 AM
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Heh, nope. No fixed bolts here, no leading to be had.
Yeah, it ain't the best equiped gym...but it does have a sort of quiant charm to it.
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vegastradguy
Feb 11, 2004, 7:00 AM
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well, terrifying...no. 3 bolts nicely equalized with a TR wrapped around a 6" steel tube up top....not a whole lot of weight on the anchor. bout half your weight.
if your TR rig is straight through draws, i might second guess it, maybe.
3 bolts/2 bolts on plywood is fine. if you're that freaked out...screw longer bolts in until they pass the T-nut in back, and slap a regular nut on behind them for security. you're ascending...not shockloading anything like a dyno would!.....
of course, like anything else...safety and comfort level are paramount. if you dont like it, dont do it.
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Feb 11, 2004, 12:51 PM
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Dude...
Having just one jug and one grigri eliminates the other jug...therefore, more efficient.
Using a grigri allows you to go up and down...important for setting routes and working moves.
Indeed, it is too bad that you don't have an anchor attachment point at the bottom of the wall because that would eliminate clutter on your harness. But, in terms of whether that makes a difference or not in efficency...it doesn't.
You are probably not jugging properly. Attach one or two aiders (2 allows you to stand up with both feet...kinda nice) to your jug, and just throw the gri gri on....Make sure your daisy chain is attached at the proper length.
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smellyhippie
Feb 11, 2004, 5:17 PM
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Ego alert! Has anyone seen my ego? Oh, yeah, it's that huge annoying thing over there.
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