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mandrake
Mar 5, 2004, 9:18 PM
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So, I'm just using the time I saved not reading this endless screed to think about the sort of mentality that goes into writing something that long and incoherent.
Wow
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joneiche
Mar 5, 2004, 9:22 PM
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yeah.... wow
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dynoguy
Mar 5, 2004, 9:24 PM
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Go easy on him guys, he's new. :lol:
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cloudbreak
Mar 5, 2004, 9:35 PM
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Damn Noface, your making me want to go buy a drill.
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stick233
Mar 5, 2004, 9:51 PM
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Your opinion is noted Noface, only because I was duped into reading your whole post hoping someone would get a bloody nose...
Just do me a favor and don't chop bolts...
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superdiamonddave
Mar 5, 2004, 9:57 PM
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DAMN YOU! LET THE RABBITS WEAR GLASSES! :twisted:
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roninthorne
Mar 5, 2004, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: It would have been enough with something short about "I would never abuse my girlfriend. Please explain how some climbers rationalize abusing the rock".
Tell me swede... do you think of putting something into your girlfriend that wasn't there in the first place as abusing her?
(Sorry, I couldn't resist. The rest of the thread? Well, the rest of this, ESPECIALLY the first rant, is pure BS, of course...)
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bluto
Mar 5, 2004, 10:16 PM
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Mr. Noface, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this website is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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granitegod
Mar 5, 2004, 10:25 PM
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Regarding the original post...
First of all.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Whuh? Oh right.....so you're a "avid lead climber" which "such accomplishments as a 5.11 route at Devil's Tower".....
Then what the hell are you doing on a 5.6, about to fall off, in Illinois? And if you're such an avid climber, why is a bolt "a shock to your brain"?
Seriously, you need help.
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shank
Mar 5, 2004, 10:48 PM
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1.It is Eric's rock to do what he wishes with. If someone besides Eric did this we may all who climb there be in trouble.
2. Anyone who removes a bolt without replacing it is doing more damage to the rock than the person who put the bolt there in the first place.
3.If you don't want to clip it don't.
4.Anyone who falls on the second pitch of Bloody Nose, regardless of how tired from climbing all day, and says they have done 11's on Devils Tower is full of crap.
Just some of my opinion.
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slablizard
Mar 5, 2004, 11:09 PM
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YAWLN.
Tell me we're not starting again the bolt thing.
Seems to me like the cigarette issue. They seem to be the only cause of death while we (all) pollute more with our cars.
But nobody ever sued a car company for cancer.
The guy is worried about few cubic inches of rock but probably got there in its big mean 4X4 truck. Hey how about all the bugs you killed down the road?
Geez.
Ban climbing shoes they smear the rock.
Ban Chalk, it kills ants.
Ban ropes, the're made out of plastic derivates.
Ban carabiners, they're made out of metal, metal has to be mined out of the EARTH :shock:
Ban all.
Most of all, ban yourself.
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jv
Mar 5, 2004, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: think of the carrots man, you just shovel those things down your throat never once thinking about harvest day that's the holocaust for them
Carrots? That makes no sense! Carrots are a renewable resource. Rock is not. You should listen to this guy. At the rate we're going, by the end of the 50th century (4982 according to Mike n. pg.), there won't be any more rock to drill. It will all be hole dust and gravel.
JV
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slablizard
Mar 5, 2004, 11:18 PM
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In reply to: [You should listen to this guy. JV
LOL!
are you serious? :shock:
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jv
Mar 5, 2004, 11:40 PM
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SERIOUS AS A HEART ATTACK.
jv
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slablizard
Mar 5, 2004, 11:58 PM
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well. I say that if we keep going as we are (in general) in the 50th century we will have problems far more serious then where to bolt. Or have no problems at all.
AS far as I'm concerned bolt are a non-issue, thy're safer (if well placed), necessary on certain kind of climbs and here to stay. With that I agree that a trad route is a trad route and that a crack should not be bolted. But to be worried about the impact of bolts in 50 centuries? :lol: sorry...it does not stick.
Let's focus more on bigger problems than a tiny piece of steel on a rock that has (generally) a meaning and a value only for us climbers.
Or you think that Joe Average cares if I retro-bolt a 4 moves wonder at Mt Diablo? Or if the ancient sacred Harring piece of stove somewhere is replaced by a bolt?
Nobody would care but US ( actually not even all of us)
It's important just for US climbers. And actually only for those climbers able to go there and actually CLIMB the thing.
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escale
Mar 6, 2004, 4:14 PM
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I never suggested sitting in your room in the corner and doing nothing to protect the environment.
I am suggesting that everyone who loves climbing and being outdoors take a “caretaker” point of view. We are the caretakers of this planet. If you spill gas and oil on the ground, then expect it to show up in your drinking water or food because the rain will wash it away and eventually plants will absorb it or sink to our ground water level. Remember all run-off leads to larger streams and then to rivers and then to the ocean.
If you don’t recycle your nickel – cadmium batteries and throw them away, you will find these heavy metals eventually in your water source as they leach out into ground water. You body doesn’t know what do to with nickel, mercury, and other heavy metals when you ingest them, neither do all the other animals and plant biosystems we share this planet with.
So, as caretakers, instead of sitting in your room doing nothing, plant a tree and take care of it till it matures, take a small bag with you when you go into the wilderness and come back with your trash and the trash that someone else just threw about. Put in low wattage bulbs in your house and turn off the light in rooms you are not using. Turn off the TV if you are not watching it. And when you go into the wilderness, don’t build a mega bonfire and leave a scorched 6 foot charred scar where you barbequed, instead see if you can get by on one of these micro stoves.
Become informed. You may one day become a deciding factor at a place of business where you get to decide what type hand drying utility you want installed in the new office building your company is building, paper towels, linen service, or powered air dryers. Which would you suggest? Or someday you might be in a position to make a great decision, but only if you are informed.
Become a caretaker of the planet. If you love it, take care of it.
Some of us are trying to figure out what to do with the billions of tons of chemical weapons that are stored at our and other government facilities which are so strong that 1 drop could destroy life in half a city block. We need our governments to start to dispose of this stuff before it begins to leak out somewhere. God help us if it every fell in the wrong uninformed hands.
---Escale.
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robmcc
Mar 6, 2004, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: Two million bolts are estimated to be placed in rock as of 2003 (Mike n. pg.). Every bolt took approximately three cubic inches of rock to be removed from the rock walls. Multiply the two figures together and the amount of rock removed is equal to six million square inches of rock. This is an equivalent amount of rock comparable to many popular climbing spots.
Uhhhm, no. Even granting you that 3 cu in figure, which someone else already shot down, 6,000,000 cubic inches (_not_ square inches) is 3,472 cubic feet of rock, or about a 15' boulder.
In reply to: I do not wish for this to become a mud slinger war. This is my opinion and am open to constructive critisism only.
We really need a "Please do not beat the dead horse." sign. I'm not a big fan of bolts either, but this debate has been going on longer either of us has been climbing. You really added nothing but specious logic and bad math. It comes down to opinion.
I'd call this a troll, but it's hard to imagine someone actually spent so much time typing out this...whatever it is...just to get a few bites.
Rob
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wonder1978
Mar 6, 2004, 10:31 PM
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While I'm trying to remain polite (and i'm surprised that no one went berserk in here, guess everyone's tired of this anyway), I still have to put some mention of your very poor proof reading skills myself. I mean come on, for an entry of this length, the least you could have done was to make sure it was tight and clean (things like structure, grammar, syntax) before posting it. Your inaptitude at writing a convincing argumentative essay blew any chance you might have had to get your point across. The way it stands, if anything, you probably converted a few trad climbers to sport, and they're gone buying a Hilty right now. And you need to get these rhetorical skills down my friend, Aristotle would be ashamed. The art of persuasion is something you can learn you know, it's not innate.
As for the argument itself, this position was pleaded years ago, and ongoingly since then, by many people a hundred times more talented than you (at least as far as argumentation, debating skills, rhetoric, math, and general writing skills are concerned) and they still haven't amounted to much. My own position on this issue is too complex to expose here, in a post that's already longer than most people care to read.
As a teaching assistant, I'm usually paid to read and grade papers like this one, and that's why I'll have to agree with roughster's grading of it, except for the length, which I think is excessive for the kind of argument the essay aims for, and accordingly, doesn't deserve an A+ but a C, at best.
Politely,
W.
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reprieve
Mar 6, 2004, 10:52 PM
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I like bolts. I don't think the rock minds. I don't think the birds/squirrels/rabbits in Yosemite mind.
And yes, this argument is dead.
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crazyclimbingadventures
Mar 6, 2004, 11:02 PM
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Why do so many retards act like bolting is a bad thing, it allows more people to enjoy the rock, and if i ever catch someone removing my bolts they will have hell to pay.
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changling
Mar 7, 2004, 12:25 AM
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No Face, I'm not a fan of bolted routes either, but your points of argument were weak and poorly presented.
The sport climbers, in defence of their sport routes, bring up points themselves as to why bolts should not be placed.
1. Trail erosion. Due to the safety of sport climbing, a lot more people are willing to give it a try. Just look at how many more climbers are out there now compared to the days there were no bolts. More climbers means more traffic to the crags, meaning more trail erosion.
2. Cars. The majority of people live in urban areas. The majority or urban areas have public transportation systems. A lot of times, people do not need cars to get to their desired destination within the city. Crags are in more isolated areas, which can only be reached by motor vehicles. More people going to sport crags, means more cars are being driven.
3. Trash. More people going to "wilderness" areas, the more likely that there will be people that do not pick up after themselves. Resulting to more garbage in what should be a pristine area. Not to mention how garbage can harm other animals.
Bolts do pollute, but the amount of pollution that it does in itself is very little, compared to other things. Visual pollution is something else, but when someone doesn't care how their selfish actions will affect others that do not share their view, it won't change. Sport climbers seem to have this shared attitude that "if we can't save the whole world, why bother doing just a little to help it", or "the level of destruction on this planet is so large, who cares if I damage it a little more." They are not the ones that will make a difference in helping the environment.
Another aspect sport climbers use in their defence is chalk as well, which is seen as visual pollution. "Why complain about the visual pollution of bolts if all climbers, including tradders use chalk, which is visual pollution as well?" They say it doesn't harm the environment, so it's okay. We don't know for sure if it doesn't harm it or not, but it is visual pollution and more. Chalk doesn't really wash out in the rain. Most boulder problems are overhanging, and until it starts raining from the ground up, normal rain isn't going to "wash it off". It also ruins climbs as well. If it didn't ruin the quality of a climb, wire brushes wouldn't be needed to brush off the chalk from the route. Not only does the chalk of previous climbers provide clues as to where the holds are, it also renders the holds slimmy if chalk has been used on it repeatedly. I, as well as some other climbers that I know, refuse to use chalk.
Bolts are good is some ways, however. They can be placed in areas to avoid people slinging fragile trees that take several years to grow on the cliffs. They also prevent people from placing protection behind loose flakes which can break off and leave an even bigger scar on the rock.
So No Face, if you are planning on writing a long essay as to why bolts are bad in order to change people's opinions, you need to look for stronger arguments. Before the age of bolts, only the brave and adventurous set out to climb the rocks of the world. With the birth of bolts, came the common people that say, "well since it's safe, I've got nothing to lose in persuing this" to ad to the number of climbers and level of destruction.
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treebeard
Mar 7, 2004, 1:14 AM
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Well I could put up a post about how bouldering should be the only allowed form of climbing since it has the least impact of all, but I'm not because its probably already been debated here a million times.
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slablizard
Mar 7, 2004, 1:27 AM
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you mean boudering without a crash pad. The crash pad leaves traces.
I suggest we all practice soloing.
But then the corpses would leave an impact...after the impact. :D
Ok, let's all just think about climbing, but in a sort of meditation state. loud mental waves could displace some pebble somewhere
DEFACING THE EARTH :shock:
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jv
Mar 7, 2004, 1:28 AM
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Complain all you want about his grammar, how his premise is fatally flawed, his citations are worthless, the topic was DOA, but you can't deny it was a successful troll. Four pages and still going.
JV
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