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verticallaw
Apr 4, 2002, 5:59 PM
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I have just repyed to a artical about clipping in to your belay loop. This has caused me a concern about how the gyms are teaching new climbers what to do. I have seen instructers cut corners in the gym and have justified it by saying "the likelyhood of a accident are slim", "I have to many students to teach everything to" etc. This scares me as I feel that the gym and their instructers have a respondibility to teach properly. Yes the student may never leave the safety of the gym but the instructer CAN NOT ensure that. If we have new climbers at the crag setting up or tying in incorectly this is a concern for all of us as climing in many parts is considered dangerous and a not needed risk in goverment parks. Please either post somthing to calm me down (and knock me off my soap box) or back me up I think that this is somthing that conserns us all.
Mike
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jt512
Apr 4, 2002, 7:29 PM
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This is definitely a problem, as can be verified by observation any weekend at your local sport climbing crag. Much of the problem could be alleviated if gym instructors emphasized to their students that what they are learning is applicable only to the gym, and that they need further instruction before heading outdoors. Unfortunately, gym climbers aren't often told this.
One would think that this is just common sense, but, apparently, common sense is less common than I imagine it to be.
-Jay
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howitzer
Apr 4, 2002, 8:09 PM
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YES!!! The clipping into the belay loop forum was beginning to go this way, and I will say again what I said there - gyms need to teach the correct safety practices - why teach one way when to go climbing outdoors climbers will need to be taught all over again?!? I worked at a gym like this who used methods not used outdoors (i.e. using gri-gris so that climbers never learned how to set up a belay, and climbing off figure 8 bights with biners so climbers never learned to tie a figure 8 knot). I am 99% sure alot of the bad outdoor safety practices I see around here came from learning in gyms with instructors who 'didn't have time' to teach things thouroughly and correctly.
Gyms need to concentrate on teaching things right and not getting people on the wall so darn fast just to please the customer ....
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gpmonkey
Apr 4, 2002, 8:17 PM
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The gym I go to in Connecticut is very focused on safety and proper technique. The course they give is limited in size and last for 6 hours. The majority of the time is spent on explaining the equipment and rope tying. They make you come back in a week and take a belay test. Also, staff walks around the gym and is quick to point out poor belaying technique and give advice. I knew nothing about climbing before I took the class and I feel very confidient that I will be a safe climber. I am thrilled to know that my gym has higher standards than many others but I am bummed that the others don't care enough. -GP
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wigglestick
Apr 4, 2002, 8:22 PM
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I think that gym employees teach too much. I think more learning needs to be done by climbers and less teaching by gym owners/employees. I don't think it is the responsibility of the gym owner to make sure every person who climbs at their gym is 100% safe at climbing outdoors. They are only concerned with the safety of the people from the time they enter the building until they leave the building. I don't think any gym owner will ever claim to teach people how to climb El Cap. That just isn't the right place or right time to teach a subject as complex as rock climbing.
I used to work at a gym at a local University. We were not supposed to teach anybody anything. We weren't supposed to teach you how to tie a knot, belay, or anything for exactly the reasons you are all talking about. If we teach you to do something and you go out and hurt yourself than we are exposing ourselves to the liability. If you wanted to learn how to tie a knot and belay you had to go and learn it on your own rather than have us teach it to you. There is a big difference there.
Although I do think that if a gym teaches people some aspects of the sport they should emphasize that the person has alot more to learn before they are ready to head out to the crags on their own.
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hardcoredana
Apr 5, 2002, 12:03 AM
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Quote:I think more learning needs to be done by climbers and less teaching by gym owners/employees. I don't think it is the responsibility of the gym owner to make sure every person who climbs at their gym is 100% safe at climbing outdoors.
I agree with the above statement.
Quote:They are only concerned with the safety of the people from the time they enter the building until they leave the building.
But I do not agree with the above statement. (Wigglestick, I'm not sure, though, as to whether you support this practice or not.)
Gyms can increase the likelihood that people will act safely when they climb both indoors and outdoors, and they can do this without teaching everything there is to know about outdoor climbing. The answer is very simple, really.
jt512 expressed it perfectly when he said:
Quote:Much of the problem could be alleviated if gym instructors emphasized to their students that what they are learning is applicable only to the gym, and that they need further instruction before heading outdoors.
Gyms do not need to teach everything exactly as it is done outside. If they did that, none of their customers would ever get to climb, and the gym would never make money (they are after all, a business, not a charity organization). Gyms do need to clearly state (more than once, preferably) that the customer will need further instruction/expertise in order to climb outside.
[ This Message was edited by: hardcoredana on 2002-04-04 16:04 ]
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robscate
Apr 5, 2002, 12:21 AM
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gymn instructors cannot gaurantee the safety of a student they tought for one, two or three hours. When I began to climb I sought out every local expert every magazine and every book on the subject. I believe it is the climbers responsibility to learn safety.
No one can blame anyone else for their own stupidity or lack of knowledge.
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hishopper
Apr 5, 2002, 2:05 AM
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What Robscate says is true:
Quote:No one can blame anyone else for their own stupidity or lack of knowledge.
However, one can sue someone else for their own stupidity and lack of knowledge - I think the root of this issue lies in the fact that a gym is a fundamentally different beast than a slab of rock. Rock is from God for you to climb. Gym is from middle aged guy (or gurl) that may or may not have climbing in their blood, but either way need to make a profit to keep the doors open and protect their investment. As an avid climber and prospective gym owner, I faced with the fact that if I'm going to sign my name on a long white piece of paper that says "we'll give you 10,000 if you give us 150,000 back" (or we will sell your appendages and organs at bulk price - fine print), I have to have a way of doing that! That means that every decision, from design to staffing, comes from that viewpoint. From a climbing standpoint I will of course ensure that safety and common sense are paramount, but if the bald-headed little insurance guy likes the look of a figure-8 and a biner clipped to a bite, guess what? And if he doesn't think we should "teach" anything about real climbing...
I just hope when all is said and done I'm able to provide an easy going fun place for real climbers to get their fix when it's raining, parties (in a seperate area) to pay the bills and a business that's not going to take me and everything I own down with it!
[ This Message was edited by: hishopper on 2002-04-04 18:06 ]
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wigglestick
Apr 5, 2002, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
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They are only concerned with the safety of the people from the time they enter the building until they leave the building.
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But I do not agree with the above statement. (Wigglestick, I'm not sure, though, as to whether you support this practice or not.)
I think this is the reality, whether or not I support that approach is irrelevant. If I owned a gym I would only want to be responsible for the safety of my customers while they were on my property. However, I do think it is the responsibility of the gym to inform people that they do not know enough to climb by themselves outside the gym environment. This also makes sense from the business perspective. Teach the customers the minimum they need to know to get hooked and then sign them up for $200/person classes that teach them the rest of the skills they need to climb outside safely. Cha Ching.
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howitzer
Apr 5, 2002, 4:34 PM
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OK,
I'm not saying that to climb in a gym someone should have to take a weekend class for tons of money to learn nit-picky stuff that does not apply to the gym, but I really don't see how learning to properly belay or learning a figure 8 for an indoor climber is entirely unnecessary. And how long does it really take to get that knot down people?!?! If I see someone do it 3 times in a row unassisted and tie themselves in correctly, then they've got it. 15 minutes of time for some good skills that, in my humble opinion, everyone who goes in the air on a piece of rope should know? I see the points of all these posts, very good ones at that --
YES gyms need to state explicitly that just because a person can climb inside does not mean they are ready for outdoors.
YES liability is an issue and the little insurance man has the last say, so I guess he's the one who should be reading this! Climbers must sign their life away when they go in the air - we do it everytime we go to the rock, so gym climbers must abide.
YES climbing indoors and outdoors are VERY different. And I understand that climbing centers need to make money, heck I worked at one and I know how slow they can be and that they need people to climb -period. But WHY TEACH BAD HABITS TO BEGIN WITH.
I think if you haven't taught anything then you've started on the wrong foot when it comes to climbing. Once again just my $.02
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verticallaw
Apr 5, 2002, 7:10 PM
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This is great but I belive that the point that I am trying to make is...
If a new climber climbs in the gym as often as they wish the repetitive act of using the equiptment is a lesson in itself. If I clip into a double figure of eight every time i climb than I will learn that this is the corect way to use the equipment. But on the other hand if I clip into a figure of eight knowing full well that this is not the proper way to use the equiptment than I will spend the time learning both ways. In this aspect I do not belive that a instructer or a gym owner is reponsible for ensureing the climbers saftey in the future but they should be respondible for ensureing that the climber knows that what they are being taught is only appicable at the gym (and more specifically THAT gym) there are gyms around my home that would tear a stip off of you for clipping in this way. When a instructer is teaching a student their basic role is to instruct. What they teach is up to them but they do have the respondibility to let that student know that this is only one of many ways that the task is accomplished and that they should learn all ways in order to ensure their own safety. As climbers we are constantly bombarded by the fact that WE ARE RESPONDSIBLE NO MATTER WHAT. If my gear is not used right I die simple fact. sueing the cam company or the gym will not change the fact that I was doing something dangerous and I screwd up.
The legalities of owning a climbing gym are incredible and we all need to watch our backs. I make a point to tell anyone climbing with me that has less experiance that I may be doing something incorectly or not to specs. As climbers we all know that there are situations where we need to be creative and "think outside the box" if it is for simplicity or legalities it does not matter. We are showing someone how to do a task the student will assume that this is corect unless we state otherwise. The gym that I go to has a wonderfull rule of once you have taken the course you are free to ask questions at any time, they teach using gri-gri but if you come in with a atc and ask them to watch you use it once or twice they will. This does not take much time for them and they are not able to be held respondsible but they are aware that a new climber that is just geting started may not know any other climbers and they need to ask questions somewhere. As a legal worker already I give advise to anyone who asks but I make a point to finish my statment with "this is only my opinion though" this covers my legal ass. so to close this is a grey area and a dangerous place to be but so is climbing this is the nature of the life we lead
Cheers
Mike
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