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alwaysforward
Mar 29, 2004, 8:44 PM
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As far as violent, I meant physically violent. Sorry. Terrorism can be accomplished without hurting people. That's what I meant.
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thegreytradster
Mar 29, 2004, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: As far as violent, I meant physically violent. Sorry. Terrorism can be accomplished without hurting people. That's what I meant.
How does torching someone's livelyhood, personal property or lifes work not hurt them?
How's about if someone comes over and burns all your "right clothes and sunglasses" so you can't send anymore. Would that hurt? Not to mention be criminal? Or is your sense of morality as skewed as the Talaban's and it's ok if it's for a good cause? Or does definition # 2d fit?
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rngrchad
Mar 29, 2004, 11:56 PM
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Reading the thread, I thought a few of you "anti-timber industry" folks would get a kick out of this: I myself, am graduation Natural Resources Managment at the end of this quarter. I am planning on enrolling in 1 year technical apprenticeship to become a certified timbermen. I have close friends who work in the timber industry, and they are all good guys. Overall the industry has it's head on straight, they use most all the wood that is cut, and when they don't the excess is often offered up as free or pay-for firewood. The timber industry is self-sustaining because of their good managment practices. Example being, without out rotational thinning forests would contain all pole-size timber, thus creating an underdeveloped-overstocked woodstand with poor future production opportunites. Overstocked stands then lead to deadbark problems in the crown and forests with no canopy.
*Processing of forest products requires very little energy compared to non-wood substitutes and compared to the renewable energy captured by the growth process.*<---- Take that hippies!
I know of no other resource producing system which has so many positives.
On the ANTI-Hippie note, a logging crew was fell'n trees in Zaleski state forest(near where I climb, and backpack) and 11 "treehuggers" had themselves perched high-atop trees marked for harvest. They spent 2 nights there before law-enforcement was able to get them down. How pathetic. Tell me you hippies, what is going through your mind? Just tell me why don't you understand?
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alwaysforward
Mar 29, 2004, 11:57 PM
Post #54 of 83
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They're attacking organizations and companies, not individuals. Huge difference. i.e They're not breaking the workers leg they're breaking the companies bulldozer. I meant terrorism more in the sense of a small camp using quick guerilla tactics against these organizations. This will get the label of terrorism to evoke public fear against these people. They're waging a war the only way they can.
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chupa
Mar 30, 2004, 12:06 AM
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they still smell funny
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donie
Mar 30, 2004, 12:20 AM
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i hate the word personally.
love most of the peeps categorized. but i hate that word
i've been called a hippie, then just get a frigin haircut and noone says it anymore!!!
my ideals haven't changed.
i've even done treework for a while, even had my own little business.
Blur the lines, they exist only in our minds.
but im still not hip to that word..................................
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thegreytradster
Mar 30, 2004, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: They're attacking organizations and companies, not individuals. Huge difference. i.e They're not breaking the workers leg they're breaking the companies bulldozer. I meant terrorism more in the sense of a small camp using quick guerilla tactics against these organizations. This will get the label of terrorism to evoke public fear against these people. They're waging a war the only way they can.
Do lets say you just torched Donnie's bulldozer, (hypotheticaly)
He doesn't work for a week, neither does the rest of his crew. The little old lady school teachers retirement portfolio declines because of the losses. Those organizations are people. What you are proposing is criminal.
UBL is waging war the only way he can also. There is no moral difference between the two. Once you decide you "are" the law, you're in the same camp and no different than UBL, Tim McVeigh, The IRA, on infinitum.
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donie
Mar 30, 2004, 1:00 AM
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thats cool, only owned a chainsaw............ :twisted:
but not donnie its donie, long o, derived from nickname, brendonie...... 8)
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alwaysforward
Mar 30, 2004, 1:09 AM
Post #59 of 83
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In reply to: UBL is waging war the only way he can also. There is no moral difference between the two. Once you decide you "are" the law, you're in the same camp and no different than UBL, Tim McVeigh, The IRA, on infinitum.
Once again, I agree with you. The problem is that, it's a shitty situation. Believe it or not the earth cannot be sustained at this level of resource destruction. People can only be backed so far into a corner before the breaking point is reached and action is required. It's a shame, but THAT is the lesson that history has taught us. As long as there exists oppression, tyranny and destruction there will exist those people who refuse to endure it.
In reply to: As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever. In reply to: The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. In reply to: War kills men, and men deplore the loss; but war also crushes bad principles and tyrants, and so saves societies. In reply to: When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. In reply to: With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plea; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost.
http://gcdranet.homelinux.com/...la-oh-08-08-02-l.jpg
The Declaration of Independance and The Emancipation Proclamation did not come free. I hope, but doubt, that the salvation of the environment will come free.
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pornstarr
Mar 30, 2004, 1:13 AM
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trees are a renewable resource folks.
plant them and they will grow. it's a beautiful thing.
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alwaysforward
Mar 30, 2004, 1:21 AM
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We're not just talking about trees. It's just an example. And that doesn't apply to old-growth forests and ish like that.
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thegreytradster
Mar 30, 2004, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: trees are a renewable resource folks. plant them and they will grow. it's a beautiful thing.
Yep, and cuting one down never threatened anyones liberty!
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alwaysforward
Mar 30, 2004, 1:33 AM
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Then spiking one didn't either.
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pornstarr
Mar 30, 2004, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: Then spiking one didn't either.
by your logic, i could rig your car to blow up as soon as you crank the engine......and i would have done nothing wrong.
ignorance is bliss
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unabonger
Mar 30, 2004, 4:11 AM
Post #65 of 83
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In reply to: In reply to: So now a laborer in a sawmill is the moral equivilent to an SS officer? In terms of moral responsibility to themselves, yes! Everybody must take responsibility for what do, and be aware of the potential consequences to themselves. If your job offends, then be prepared for the consequences. Any cop can tell you that.
Ahh, Tradman, you have the passion of a schoolchild and the intellect to match. If the laborer is the "moral equivalent" to an SS officer, then you do understand you are worse than a Nazi yourself, my foolish friend? See, computers are actually more harmful to the environment than any car or cut wood! And here you are typing your silly stoned thoughts about morality on a piece of equipment that according to your own logic puts you on par with the the most infamous fascists the world has known! Have you ever thought about how much energy it takes to produce a computer? Because there is this interesting irony in that the smaller the component circuitry, the greater the energy it takes to produce it! Especially when you consider that the life cycle of a computer is 1/10th that of the average car! And it isn't nearly as recyclable as a car. Even factoring in the gas and other consumables, computers are worse, yep, face it ya big nazi.
Not to mention that trees have a singular and obvious advantage over consumer products like pc's and autos...they grow! Yep, just like the hair you waxed off your boyfriends balls last night, they come back...so perhaps a lumberjack is more like a...barber, rather than an SS barbarian...hey, that's clever. You can use that if you want.
So throw yourself on the mercy of the world court, ya big goof! Perhaps if you stop wasting energy with your ill thought out words we will grant you clemency. "Accept your consequences", you are prepared, right?
Moral certitude is a short lived phenomenon, because your own weakness is just too hard to supress.
The EnergyHogBonger
PS I hereby invoke Godwin's maxim. Thread closed.
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tradman
Mar 30, 2004, 12:00 PM
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In reply to: And here you are typing your silly stoned thoughts about morality on a piece of equipment that according to your own logic puts you on par with the the most infamous fascists the world has known!
Uh? Did I say that? Or is this some bizarre form of extrapolation on your part? :?
Okay, I'll try to explain it to you:
1) Everybody has a moral responsibility to conduct themselves in such a way that they are prepared to take responsibility for their actions.
Example: if I hit someone without provocation, then I should be aware that they may hit me back, or call the police.
2) This extends to our professional occupations.
Example: If I work as a police officer, then I should be aware that many criminals may verbally or maybe physically abuse me because of my job.
Okay, are you with me so far? Now this next part is a little tricky, so please be sure to read it two or three times before replying.
3) Responsibility is not the same thing as blame.
My assertion is that people should take responsibility for their actions, right (1)? That doesn't imply that I think hitting people is right, or that being a police officer is wrong (2). It only implies that I think people who hit others, or work as police officers, should be aware of the potential consequences.
As an extension, loggers should be aware that "hippies" may take issue with what they do, and that there may be consequences.
I appreciate that you've put a lot of work into your post to try to sound clever - the "court" metaphor, and your use of big words like "certitude" are an improvement on your usual crude sexual innuendo and verbal abuse.
Still, if I can offer a couple of observations (and these are not intended as criticisms), you might want to leave out references to things like my "boyfriends balls", as it may reduce your credibility as a serious thinker. Or at the very least, if you do need to resort to insults, you might want to punctuate them correctly.
Overall, yes, you've improved since we last chatted, but I'm afraid your content needs a great deal of work. With a little practice you might well be able to step up and debate quite well with the rest of us. Thanks though!
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bumblie
Mar 30, 2004, 1:10 PM
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Leave it alone Tradman. The post below was utter non-sense. Comparing a guy cutting down trees that his employer owns, to an SS officer. Give me a break.
Then regarding terrorists, you say although we do not want to harm anyone, we will accept it if it happens. WRONG!!! The killing of innocents in Bali was the intent, not an unintentional by-product.
Arguing your points in some theoretical abstract might (and I stress might) hold up, but in reality they're complete tripe.
In reply to: In reply to: So now a laborer in a sawmill is the moral equivilent to an SS officer? In terms of moral responsibility to themselves, yes! Everybody must take responsibility for what do, and be aware of the potential consequences to themselves. If your job offends, then be prepared for the consequences. Any cop can tell you that. In reply to: If you can make that logical leap then surely you would concede that, the ELF, Earth First, PITA et,al. are terrorists of the same stripe that blew up the club in Bali. In terms of moral responsibility to themselves, they are in exactly the same league. Their message is even the same in moral terms: "we want to communicate a message, and although we do not want to harm anyone, we will accept it if it happens" Neither side is innocent. Terrorists deserve to be made to take responsibility, and to be punished as merited. But so do loggers. And whereas I don't doubt that terrorists deserve far greater punishments, I hardly think that means we should let loggers who wreck the environment off scot-free. |
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tradman
Mar 30, 2004, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: Comparing a guy cutting down trees that his employer owns,
That's a valid point. Actually, much as this discussion has been fun, I think I will take your advice and leave it alone - I've no real desire to get into a tit for tat with bonger regarding my boyfriend's balls (again).
We probably could argue it further, but I think it'd just end up messy (and now that you're here and apparently feeling annoyingly astute today, I think most of the mess would be on my side).
cheers bum!
:wink:
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justsendingits
Mar 30, 2004, 1:19 PM
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We all own the air, including future generations. It is common property.
So what mega logging companies do affects everyone.
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bumblie
Mar 30, 2004, 1:21 PM
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And on a less contentious note - I cut down (and then cut up) a tree last Sunday. Chainsaws are big fun. Power tools - mans way to reconnect with his primal roots. Arg, arg, arg, grunt, snort! 8)
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bumblie
Mar 30, 2004, 1:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Comparing a guy cutting down trees that his employer owns, That's a valid point. Actually, much as this discussion has been fun, I think I will take your advice and leave it alone - I've no real desire to get into a tit for tat with bonger regarding my boyfriend's balls (again). We probably could argue it further, but I think it'd just end up messy (and now that you're here and apparently feeling annoyingly astute today, I think most of the mess would be on my side). cheers bum! :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It seems you took your funny pills today. Got any extra?
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bumblie
Mar 30, 2004, 2:04 PM
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Anyone seen Wildtrail? :roll:
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chupa
Mar 30, 2004, 3:37 PM
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This thread is getting stupid. All I have to compare things to now just screw up my world. Loggers=SS officers Loggers=police officers therefore police officers=ss officers. Hippies=criminals that attack police officers. hippies= environmentalists therefore environmentalists =criminals that attack police officers. So that means that Hippies are criminals that attack ss officers/loggers. I guess we can thank the hippies for winning WWII. Thanks hippies!
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