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rrrADAM
Apr 19, 2004, 12:39 AM
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Rob... Where did you get that ??? Because I don't remember the names of the books I read years ago, nor do I have them to accurately site them, does not mean "MY ASS is a better source of facts than books", as my knowledge comes from books. :?
Matt... C'mon brutha... Europe is a history of wars. From the prior to written history through the most recent World Wars. The Ghalls(sp?), Vikings, Romans, Turks, Prussians, Mongols, Norse, etc... Western Europe has the worst history of this compared to any other locale.
Paul... The Conquistadors made it to the South East and Eastern South West. I think they made it as far as what is now eastern New Mexico, and as far north as Oklahoma. This blazed the trail for further Spanish colonialism in the west all the way up to Southern Oregon. Think about all the spanish missions out west, guess where they came from... Spanish Christians pushing their religion on the local denisens. The Utes (smallest tribe in the US) and the Navajo (largest tribe in the US), as well as the Hopi and all other Pueblo indians are believed to be decended from the Anasazi. They traded with the Aztecs, but are distictly different. You got me on the technicality, as even Rock and Road by Tim Toula shows Mexico as part of North America. :wink:
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mattdog
Apr 19, 2004, 12:41 AM
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In reply to: In other words: "Morality is a herd instinct in the individual."
No. A person's morality is as individual as their experiences in life. My morality is different than yours. However, my feelings throughout my experiences are probably very similar to yours and everyone else's.
I find your quote either redundant or overly simplistic, but I can't decide which. A "herd instinct" is what? Something the entire herd of humanity possesses? Then, you could say that about anything. Hunger is a herd instinct in the individual. I want a Big Mac while you want french fries.
Oh, and this thread is not about morality, but spirituality, which is slightly more personal than morality. Lets keep things on track here. :wink:
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mattdog
Apr 19, 2004, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: Matt... C'mon brutha... Europe is a history of wars. From the prior to written history through the most recent World Wars. The Ghalls(sp?), Vikings, Romans, Turks, Prussians, Mongols, Norse, etc... Western Europe has the worst history of this compared to any other locale.
Correct, but this is often due more to geographic proximity, versus cultural nature. Indians lived far apart. That made it hard to fight. Oh, but they did. Like already stated, the Aztecs were especially brutal. The Sioux were like the Swiss, but the Apaches were like the Germans. Everybody was worried about when they were going to attack next.
The Mongols, by the way, were from Mongolia. The Huns were from Asia, too. We just have more history from Europe, so we have a record of all the wars. We don't have an exact record of all the wars that were fought prior to us arriving. But, remember, in 1572 when Pizaaro took over the Incan empire, he ran into the 50,000 man Incan army.
They had to have that army for SOMETHING, and it wasn't knitting sweaters.
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mattdog
Apr 19, 2004, 12:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Oh, and this thread is not about morality, but spirituality, which is slightly more personal than morality. Lets keep things on track here. :wink: Good point... My bad. :(
My bad too. I just pulled it off track again.
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rrrADAM
Apr 19, 2004, 12:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Oh, and this thread is not about morality, but spirituality, which is slightly more personal than morality. Lets keep things on track here. :wink: Good point... My bad. :( My bad too. I just pulled it off track again.
I'll save my replies to when we tie in together on Wednesday in North Carolina. :wink:
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ipsofacto
Apr 19, 2004, 1:21 AM
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mattdog
Apr 19, 2004, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: My morality is different than yours Unless you routinely engaged in antisocial activities, believed fervently in a sexual union between a father and his daughter, killed, maimed, raped, drank blood, then we share the same morality by virtue of our instruction in the mores of this society. In reply to: A "herd instinct" is what? Something the entire herd of humanity possesses? Yes, matt, it is something all of us share, hence the living in cities and cooperation, learning English so that we can communicate, s--- in a toilet so that disease isn't spread throughout the community, having a career, et al, ad infinitum...all of this comes as a consequence of functioning collectively. In reply to: Oh, and this thread is not about morality, but spirituality, which is slightly more personal than morality. Lets keep things on track here Matt, reread my original argument and quotation by Nietzsche and think about it for more than a minute.
Ooooh, we've got a snippy philosophy student on our hands, don't we? I had a friend in philosophy when I was an undergrad. He was good at memorizing quotations.
No, our moralities are different, sorry to say. Yours and mine are probably similar. However, I believe premarital sex is an ok thing. There are alot of people who disagree. I also believe that people criminally insane should be executated, rather than pose a danger to society. Some people disagree. Slightly different moralities.
Some ideas are universal though, as you mentioned. Incest is generally frowned upon, as is rape. Cannibalism is ok in some places. Morality differs from individual to individual. Sometimes only slightly, but it does. We each take it and apply it differently to our lives. Trust me, Iraqi morality is quite different.
However, these differences are focused on too much. Morality is not an instinct, it is a set of beliefs that each person adapts to themselves. Once those beliefs are so adapted, we become more and more individualized, and lose track of the feelings, emotions, and desires that brought us to those conclusions.
If all moralities were the same, we wouldn't be fighting halfway across the globe, would we? We'd all come to the same conclusions and live happily. But we don't. Our moralities differ, our innate humanity does not. And that is what is lost. :cry:
And please don't ever quote or refer back to Nietzsche. The only reason anyone cites Nietzsche is because a) they are at a loss for words themself, and b) nobody ever really understood him in the first place, so it makes a great argument stopper.
(You know its true.) :lol:
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camhead
Apr 19, 2004, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: Paul... The Conquistadors made it to the South East and Eastern South West. I think they made it as far as what is now eastern New Mexico, and as far north as Oklahoma. This blazed the trail for further Spanish colonialism in the west all the way up to Southern Oregon. Think about all the spanish missions out west, guess where they came from... Spanish Christians pushing their religion on the local denisens. The Utes (smallest tribe in the US) and the Navajo (largest tribe in the US), as well as the Hopi and all other Pueblo indians are believed to be decended from the Anasazi. They traded with the Aztecs, but are distictly different. You got me on the technicality, as even Rock and Road by Tim Toula shows Mexico as part of North America. :wink:
adam.... shit, I hate to keep taking the thread off on the tangent, but this is what I said...
In reply to: you spoke initially of conquistadors raiding Indians and stealing their gold. these were the Aztec and Inca, NOT "north american indians.
I'm standing by this. Show me a north american indian tribe that the Spanish took gold from. sorry, it's another technicality, but none of the tribes you speak of had any gold beyond trinkets diffused northward from Mexico. and if I may infuse a little bit of jt512-styled snobbery, arguing this with me is like me telling you about safety inspecting nuclear reactors. sorry. next post will have footnotes, you've been warned.
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camhead
Apr 19, 2004, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: But, remember, in 1572 when Pizaaro took over the Incan empire, he ran into the 50,000 man Incan army.
BBBZZZZTT. Pizarro's initial conquest process took from about 1524 to 1533.* see footnote as promised.
*for a general overview, see Lockhart, James, and Stuart B. Schwartz. Early Latin America: A History of Colonial Spanish America and Brazil. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983. for a detailed chronology of Pizarro's conquest and the collapse of Atahualpa's regime, see the narrative work by Hemming, John. The Conquest of the Incas. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1970. for a detailed monograph on the persistance of Inca customs long after the so-called "conquest" see
both Spalding, Karen. Huarochirí: An Andean Society Under Inca and Spanish Rule. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1984 and Mills, Kenneth. Idolatry and Its Enemies: Colonial Andean Religion and Extirpation, 1640-1750/i]. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1997.
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rrrADAM
Apr 19, 2004, 3:38 AM
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I did not say that they soley wanted gold. I said they came in a veil of spreading Christianity, when they really wanted gold. They also wanted to conquer and colonize as did the whole of Western Europe at that time.
You said they never got above Mexico...
In reply to: Numerous Native American groups lived along the banks of the Mississippi. These included the Ojibwa, Winnebago, Fox, Sac (Sauk), Choctaw, Chickasaw, Natchez, and Yazoo. They traded with one another, farmed the floodplains, fished the waters, and gave the river its name. The first Europeans to travel on the river were Spanish conquistadors, such as Hernando de Soto in 1541... "Mississippi (river)." Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2001. © 1993-2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I think I should split this thread, or better yet, come out to North Carolina Wednesday and tie in with Matt and I. We can all 3 talk about this.
BTW... Of the roughly 3300 tribes of indians native to what is now the continental US and Canada, only about 3% were warring. Just because most people can't actually name more than 10 tribes, and are only familiar with the larger warring tribes sensationalized in books and film, doesn't mean that more than 3% were warring. Most tribes were actually made up of extended families similar to the many clans in Western Europe prior to the middle ages.
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camhead
Apr 19, 2004, 3:50 AM
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dude. adam. I never said anywhere that Spain never got beyond mexico. honest. sorry. try to find quotes where I said that. this thread is getting lame, but at least it is keeping me away from doing productive work.
and y'all's history fecking sucks, yo. if I get any more bored, I will list each and every one of your errors and misconceptions, at least in relation to the Americas.
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sharpender
Apr 19, 2004, 4:13 AM
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mattdog wrote: In reply to: If all moralities were the same, we wouldn't be fighting halfway across the globe, would we? We'd all come to the same conclusions and live happily
My three year old granddaughter is selfish but without malice. She also exhibits a desire to share, but as a function of connecting not of intellectual altruism. As such she posesses no duality of good and evil. She has no anger at "other". Observing her I would say that morality is learned, but is also an outgrowth of our spirituality which I believe is our "instinct" to live in harmony with our environment, the physical and energetic world around us; to be in joy and awe of life and that when in that peace (as organizms) we have no drive to kill humans. Morality is a functioning of that spirituality in the practical world but has become perverted to control the world, to meet the paradigm and appetites that drive us and thus serves selfish individual and group goals (Church leaders threatening to kill Galileo for upsetting the applecart of man supreme in the universe by removing the sun from the center). For a fascinating essay on all this read "Eve's Seed" by Robert McElaine.
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ipsofacto
Apr 19, 2004, 4:53 AM
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organic
Apr 19, 2004, 5:02 AM
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Nice thread hijack guys I thought this was supposed to not end in an a debate!
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acrophobic
Apr 19, 2004, 7:00 AM
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Diversity should be embraced, not shunned. I recognize what religion gives people who need it, but there are a vast number of people who do not need it. Life is wonderful, live it for yourself… not for the fear of a presumption what could happen after you die. There is one sure thing of what happens after someone dies and one alone: decomposition. Everything else are just guesses. If those guesses fill you with joy then follow them, just come to understand that people can live just as fulfilling and joy-filled lives without it as you can with it.
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mazzystr
Apr 19, 2004, 1:41 PM
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myself, i think everyone has it wrong. people look to external forces to see them through tough times, to find enlightenment, god, buddah, etc, etc, blah, blah. those people miss the point completely. the human mind is an endless well of thought. the human mind thought up god....and at the same time harnessed the atom.
the only answers come from within. peace with yourself IS eternal.
Spirituality is a huge part of my life. spiritualism is part of my dance when i dance....part of my philosphy when i philosophized....and part of my climb when i climb. its how it is and i couldnt begin to explain those feelings in words.
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calamity_chk
Apr 19, 2004, 3:37 PM
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my sense of spirituality is personal. the closest to a public discussion that i'm willing to make about it is in my TR. life, universe, god, goddess, whatever. imho, discussing my spirituality would be akin to posting details of my sex life, only more abstract and way less sexy - but incredibly personal nonetheless.
to continue with the analogy, telling someone that they should believe more like you is like telling them that they should like the same positions as you - just because you like it that way doesnt mean that the rest of us have to, and unless you're involved in that very personal exchange between spirit and Spirit, it doesnt really affect you and, imho, shouldnt really matter to you. we all get our jollies in different ways, and as long as no one is hurting anyone else, there really isnt much to whine about. imho.
as for people arguing with camhead about history. camhead is a good friend so i feel like i can say this. trying to find a way to piss into gusty winds without getting any on you would like be a more productive use of time. this is his disseration topic. he has likely done the same research, if not more, as encarta and will be writing his own encyclopedic volumes about it.
as a side note, while facts are facts, they are rarely presented in an objective manner. history is mostly subjective. dont believe me. i about fell out when i went to grant's tomb. us southern folk werent taught the same thing as those damned yankees about grant. cultural context affects narratives, including ones based on fact.
thank you, and have a wonderful day. (insert flower emot)
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scubasnyder
Apr 19, 2004, 3:49 PM
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nothing
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ipsofacto
Apr 19, 2004, 4:23 PM
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greyicewater
Apr 19, 2004, 5:13 PM
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shit
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mattdog
Apr 19, 2004, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...nobody ever really understood him in the first place Here, then, is Nietzsche presented so that even a moron like you can understand. Nietzsche and his Magical Glasses
Damn, yo. I don't recall ever calling you names. I simply disagreed with your conclusions... (in a sarcastic manner.) Let's not take anything personally.
I studied Nietzsche as an undergrad. Two semesters of philosophy was required for my undergrad. I found Nietzsche boring, and his ideas remarkably jaded. Your brief interpretation of his works was funny, to say the least, but overly simplistic.
However, it does highlight the most important fact of spirituality: thats its nothing more than personal beliefs. God might not exist. But people can still choose to believe in him. Who gives a crap? Not me. I have beer. :lol:
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vivalargo
Apr 19, 2004, 6:34 PM
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However, it does highlight the most important fact of spirituality: thats its nothing more than personal beliefs.
You're globalizing your own take on what spirituality is, or is not. You've got an unshakable "belief" in the complete fusion of beliefs and spirituality, where you posit them as being much the same thing.
When you wipe the slate clean of beliefs, ideas, opinions, et al, what's left in terms of your actual experience?
Go to that place and be amazed . . .
JL
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mattdog
Apr 19, 2004, 6:46 PM
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In reply to: However, it does highlight the most important fact of spirituality: thats its nothing more than personal beliefs.
You're globalizing your own take on what spirituality is, or is not. You've got an unshakable "belief" in the complete fusion of beliefs and spirituality, where you posit them as being much the same thing.
When you wipe the slate clean of beliefs, ideas, opinions, et al, what's left in terms of your actual experience?
Go to that place and be amazed . . .
JL
Say what? I feel like Nietsche. Nobody understands me. :lol:
This thread has become nothing more than people picking apart the previous person's post. Ah well... I'm outta here. Everyone have a good day.
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