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thisguy
Apr 26, 2004, 6:36 PM
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What seems to be the largest jump in climbing grades? For instance, I could hardly tell a difference between a 5.7 and a 5.8, but 5.10 and 5.11 seem to be miles apart. I've also heard that jumping to a 5.12 is huge (but I'm not quite there YET). Any thoughts...open discussion...bickering and fight...insulting of intelligence?
Anything,
Guy
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taraus_de_bull
Apr 26, 2004, 6:42 PM
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um.. i never notice much difference from 5.9 down to 5.7 and for that matter i never notice difference between 5.10 and 5.11. i've onsited some 10's and 11's sport lead and i never really feel much difference. but i can't come close on 12's. so i have to say i think there is a big difference from 11 to 12 but honestly i'm so bad at feeling how hard a grade is, i thank god for guide books.
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olderic
Apr 26, 2004, 6:45 PM
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Two points:
It would be unusual to be able to distinguish between adjacent grades that are more then 2 or 3 grades off from your the hardest grade you can generally climb. The average cliber can't distinguish between 5.1 and 5.2 or 5.13 and 5.14. So 5.10 is probably what you are closelt callobrated to. The other thing is that in the higher grades the difference between adjacent letters can be as much as between adjacent numbers in the lower grades - in other words you could say that the difference between 10a and 11a is 4 grades, except... 5.10 (and 11 to a great degree) is a funny grade because of legacy issues. The difference between 13c and 14c is probably equivalent to the difference between 5.5 and 5.9
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thisguy
Apr 26, 2004, 6:48 PM
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I already have a bad feeling about this post. I think everyone will answer what ever grade they are working on is the biggest jump. Oh well, maybe people who are past a 12 will have a better perspective?!? Also, I was wondering, a jump from a 13 toa 14 would be huge, so is that why they started the a,b,c,d thing?
Thanks,
Guy
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jonf
Apr 26, 2004, 7:48 PM
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the grades are developed so that grades increase at a relatively standard interval. the interval between all grades from 5.1 - 5.10a is suppose to be equal. After 5.10 (once into the use of letter grades) the interval changes, so 2 letter grades (above 5.10) is equivalent to the 1 number grade (below 5.10).
so the differnece between 5.10a and 5.11a should be the same interval as 5.7 to 5.9.
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dfoerstel
Apr 26, 2004, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: the grades are developed so that grades increase at a relatively standard interval. the interval between all grades from 5.1 - 5.10a is suppose to be equal. After 5.10 (once into the use of letter grades) the interval changes, so 2 letter grades (above 5.10) is equivalent to the 1 number grade (below 5.10). so the differnece between 5.10a and 5.11a should be the same interval as 5.7 to 5.9.
That's good news! I had always thought 1 letter grade equals 1 number grade. Now I have more hope going from a 10a to an 11a. Is this written somewhere or is it common knowledge?
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grundlebug
Apr 26, 2004, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: It would be unusual to be able to distinguish between adjacent grades that are more then 2 or 3 grades off from your the hardest grade you can generally climb.
I agree with this It is readily apparent at the gym where I train. The head course-setter regular climbs hard 13s outdoors. He has a lot of trouble rating the lower routes. His 5.7 and 5.8 climbs are usually rated about a full grade too low. I'm redpointing hard 10s. I usually warm up on 5.8s and 5.9s. The difference between the two is quite distinct to me. Where as, they're all easy to him.
I think the jump between grades is subjective. Of course the jump at your limit will seem the largest!
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ax
Apr 26, 2004, 8:59 PM
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Getting from 12a to 12b was way easier than getting from 11d to 12a...
it's all in your head
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grundlebug
Apr 26, 2004, 9:09 PM
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I don't know why, but mentally I have a barrier on the hard letters. Mentally I'm better hitting an 11a than a 10d. I don't know why, but that "d" just gets to me...
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collegekid
Apr 26, 2004, 9:36 PM
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It varies from route to route. I suppose the biggest jump would be from a super featherbagged 5.10d to a super sandbagged 5.11a. Grades are not precise, and are solely meant to be used as a general guideline for routefinding and tracking progress.
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scracus
Apr 26, 2004, 9:51 PM
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You gotta watch the d's: 10d, 11d; usuall the first ascentionist was hoping they would be 11b/c or 12b/c and when they turned out to be only 11a or 12a then they get the sandbag rating of the corrisponding lower "d"-- beware of the D's!
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hema
Apr 26, 2004, 9:53 PM
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I'd say that the biggest grade jump would be somewhere around 5.10, as even noobs can relatively quickly climb 5.9's (without much exercice), but braking the 5.10 barrier takes some effort.
Another grade jump might be somewhere near F7c+ and F8a (5.14 or top end 5.13?) as not many people manage to climb that hard but still if you traing you could tick F7b's and even F7c's.
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nthusiastj
Apr 26, 2004, 10:24 PM
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You wanna see a big jump? Climb at the Gunks or some other old school east crag. Then climb in say, Red Rocks. You will jump about 2 letter grades overnight.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:34 AM
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In reply to: What seems to be the largest jump in climbing grades? For instance, I could hardly tell a difference between a 5.7 and a 5.8, but 5.10 and 5.11 seem to be miles apart. I've also heard that jumping to a 5.12 is huge (but I'm not quite there YET). Any thoughts...open discussion...bickering and fight...insulting of intelligence? Anything, Guy
The biggest jump is from the grade you're at to the next one.
-Jay
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innominato
Apr 27, 2004, 3:52 AM
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I jumped from 5.14 to 5.10 in just one winter. It was truly amazing...I mean, depressing.
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gumbobob
Apr 27, 2004, 5:09 AM
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the 5.10a,b,c,d grades came about because of the invention of shoe rubber--all of a sudden, climbs that were very hard became very easy and couldn't rightly be called 11s--however they were 10s, just harder versions...so THEY (as my buddy Todd says--The Heresay Experts for You) decided to break down the grades...
i agree that it always seems harder to do a 10d or 11d than an 11a or 12a--i think grade compression (from poeple like me who say, "if i can do it it CANT be a 12!") and the fact that i always feel i shouldn't fall off a 10 or 11--thusly the added mental pressure makes me overgrip and make stupid mistakes...
as well--there are so many holds on 5.9s i invariably take the hardest course (without wanting to) and make it 5.10--why? i don't know.
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 27, 2004, 5:36 AM
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One reoccurring pattern that I have seen is that the old school trads put up all the routes up to their hardest vert 11+'s(at the time) Then sport climbers came in and bolted the steeper lines and for the most part their easiest routes were 12a. Red Rocks and many other areas that predate the sport climbing craze tend to follow this pattern.
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dynoguy
Apr 27, 2004, 5:57 AM
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I've climbed a few 11.bs and this weekend I tried a 12a on top-rope. Holy Crap, 5.12s are freakin' hard. I couldn't pull more than one move without weighting the rope.
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paganmonkeyboy
Apr 27, 2004, 6:01 AM
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In reply to: You wanna see a big jump? Climb at the Gunks or some other old school east crag. Then climb in say, Red Rocks. You will jump about 2 letter grades overnight.
hehehe..go to vedauwoo, then hit your favorite sport crag...5.9 was never so hard...
"wait for baby, you sons of bitch-s !" - Bernard Wrangle
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karmaklimber
Apr 27, 2004, 6:35 AM
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I think anytime you're on the brink of breaking into a higher grade (ie. going from 10's to 11's, or 11's to 12's, etc..) then you'll have to work twice as hard to gain half as much.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: One reoccurring pattern that I have seen is that the old school trads put up all the routes up to their hardest vert 11+'s(at the time) Then sport climbers came in and bolted the steeper lines and for the most part their easiest routes were 12a. Red Rocks and many other areas that predate the sport climbing craze tend to follow this pattern.
I've always wondered why at some areas the 11s and below seem to be completely different from the 12s. I guess that explains it. This can also make it hard to work easier routes to train for 12s.
-Jay
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crazygirl
Apr 27, 2004, 9:31 PM
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just think of them as being exponentially harder, as the grades progress
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daisuke
Apr 27, 2004, 9:45 PM
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A lot of stuff about the grading seems to be about local ethics and grading tradition. if you rate routes based on the hardest move, then a 5.9 route with mostly 5.7 moves and one 5.9 move will seem just as easy as a 5.8 or 5.7. If routes are based on the overall feel of the route then a 5.9 is more likely to be a bit harder. some areas are sandbagged, others are featherbagged. you can't really go out and generalize about 5.7's and 5.9's feeling the same.
I can usually just look at a route and guess how hard it is to within one letter grade up to about 11b (sport climbing, not trad or crack). Since I don't climb harder than that I usually rate anything that looks harder than an 11 a 12 or up because i have no idea what they might be.
the jump in grades gets higher as the grade increases. There seem to be some grade jumps that are common though. From my experience, other's experience and frequent posts on this site the "sticking points" for most climbers are 5.9 to 10a and 10c to 11a/b, I can't talk much about the higher grades because I haven't climbed them and because most people don't post about being stuck at 11d. but I can send certain 11c/d's. I can't send 12 tho! so there's another one for you. I can only imagine it gets worse and worse as you keep climbing the scales into the 12's.
D
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nealric
Apr 27, 2004, 11:35 PM
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I think that with each sucessive grade, the difficulty distance is percieved as harder. Why?
Because it requires exponentially more time/effort investment to achieve each level.
My first (outdoor) climb ever? 5.8- later that day, 5.10, after a year 5.11, 5 years later 5.12.
It seems to me that the best a weekend warrior can do is low 13s anything harder just requires too much time commitment (unless you are a mutant or something)
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gumbobob
Apr 28, 2004, 12:36 AM
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yes--i agree with quite a few people here--climb 11a's on granite for awhile, then head to Red Rocks...that's the biggest jump--12a onsights--HAH!
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