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tattooed_climber
May 2, 2004, 5:35 AM
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i'm fking tired of seeing this post!!!!!!
damnit!!!...didn't i say it!!! they should make a damn RELIGION FORUM!!!..
or...even better!!....find a religion forum...go do a search on google...
this is really getting old
religion people argue against the non-religion people....sounds like you're more proud to be religious/non-religious than a climber
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ford
May 2, 2004, 5:51 AM
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Just about every major religion on the planet has a tradition of some high place being holy. Mt. Ararat, Mt. Horeb, Mt. Siani, the Mount of Olives and a whole valley (Monument Valley) full of desert towers.... even Shambala (or Shangri-la if you prefer) is hidden in the mountains.
But none of that matters.
Find the high place within yourself. If climbing as a metaphor helps, then go to it and good luck.
If it doesn't, then climb for whatever reason motivates you. Faith in yourself, and a decent pair of shoes will work just skippy. 8^)
---Ford---
Then again, I may be full of sh*t. :lol:
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cgailey
May 2, 2004, 6:32 AM
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To get away from the mud slinging between the religioners and non religioners, I will just say this:
Climbing, just like any other outdoor activity, can be a very spiritual experience. I like to take the approach where a little time is devoted to study of the scriptures, hymns, and prayer before the climbing actually starts. This is not always possible at the local crag (and especially at the local gym), but enriching an experience, where fellow believers are going to learn camaraderie and trust, with some worship time beforehand is my only suggestion.
As it has already been stated, praying for safety is a tough cookie...I say praying for lack of stupidity is better: "God, help me not to do anything stupid enough to get my n00b friends killed today"
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psychoredneck
May 2, 2004, 7:01 AM
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Evil Lurks In The Darkest Of Shadows
The Holy Ruler Of All Will Fill Your Soul
Always Present, Creeping Death, The Beginning Of Eternity
Fueled By Fire, Fueled By Hate, The Power Awaits
Satan Loves You
Come To The Dark Side
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karlbaba
May 2, 2004, 7:10 AM
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There are a lot of possible spiritual connectionsl between climbing and religion but here's an easy one:
When you're suspended on a wall, it's easy to recognize death as a possibility. And sooner or later, we're all doomed to die, we just like to be in denial of it.
So facing the possibility of death without denial can cause us to question our priorities in life. Making bank doesn't seem so important when it comes to dust in the end. Might as well seek truth and the meaning of life (and God probably fits in here somewhere) since that's where eternity lies.
Peace
karl
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scuclimber
May 2, 2004, 9:04 AM
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In reply to: religion people argue against the non-religion people....sounds like you're more proud to be religious/non-religious than a climber
Although pride is not a virtue preached by any religion I can think of offhand, I think that for most religious people (or religious climbers in this case), the importance of their religion supercedes climbing. Isn't that the point of religion? :roll:
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tgreene
May 2, 2004, 1:30 PM
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It is for the very direction this thread has turned, that I made the initial suggestion of seeking advice offline... I sent my contact info to the thread initiator yesterday, though he/she hasn't read it yet.
Personally, I ask GOD for a safe passage each and every time I rope up, and I ask it for my partner as well. 8^)
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j_ung
May 2, 2004, 3:59 PM
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As an avowed atheist, I see absolutely nothing harmful in the original post of this thread. I will therefore offer no flames, just hopes that you and your group have a good time. :D
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j_ung
May 2, 2004, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: Evil Lurks In The Darkest Of Shadows The Holy Ruler Of All Will Fill Your Soul Always Present, Creeping Death, The Beginning Of Eternity Fueled By Fire, Fueled By Hate, The Power Awaits Satan Loves You Come To The Dark Side
Now here's an intersting new user! Let the good times roll! :twisted:
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godskid5
May 2, 2004, 4:20 PM
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:D
Visit www.earthtraces.com they are an outdoor ministry who take believers and non believers alike on "life adventure" trips and relate them to the faith. After all, the rocks we climb on are Gods creation, how could you not relate?
Good luck on your trip, I am doing the same thing with our mens group later this summer. We are doing a day of climbing, a day of caving, and then the final day will be on a guided white water trip!!
Yeehaaw
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pinktricam
May 2, 2004, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: :D Visit www.earthtraces.com they are an outdoor ministry who take believers and non believers alike on "life adventure" trips and relate them to the faith. After all, the rocks we climb on are Gods creation, how could you not relate? Good luck on your trip, I am doing the same thing with our mens group later this summer. We are doing a day of climbing, a day of caving, and then the final day will be on a guided white water trip!! Yeehaaw
Now THAT sounds like a cool men's ministry!
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pinktricam
May 2, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Evil Lurks In The Darkest Of Shadows The Holy Ruler Of All Will Fill Your Soul Always Present, Creeping Death, The Beginning Of Eternity Fueled By Fire, Fueled By Hate, The Power Awaits Satan Loves You Come To The Dark Side Now here's an intersting new user! Let the good times roll! :twisted:
Or a very weak troll more than likely.
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tempestwind
May 2, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: But when you don't see God, should you strain yourself to make the metaphor?
I am sorry that you have such limited vision
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tempestwind
May 2, 2004, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: i'm fking tired of seeing this post!!!!!! damnit!!!...didn't i say it!!! they should make a damn RELIGION FORUM!!!.. or...even better!!....find a religion forum...go do a search on google... this is really getting old religion people argue against the non-religion people....sounds like you're more proud to be religious/non-religious than a climber
If you don't like it....OH f#$kin well..Get over it. :roll:
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tempestwind
May 2, 2004, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: Evil Lurks In The Darkest Of Shadows The Holy Ruler Of All Will Fill Your Soul Always Present, Creeping Death, The Beginning Of Eternity Fueled By Fire, Fueled By Hate, The Power Awaits Satan Loves You Come To The Dark Side
Oh geez >Awww Look someone who needs some attention. :boring:
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calcaneus
May 2, 2004, 7:12 PM
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I've been resisting the urge to post a reply to this thread, but I can't help myself. Keep in mind that the OP opened the forum to the discussion of Christianity and climbing....
I grew up going to church every Sunday. My great grandfather and grandfather were both ministers, my mother taught Sunday school, and I have several other clergy people in my extended family. I understand that their faith and the way they worship/believe are important to them, and I respect their right to believe as they wish. With that disclaimer, climbing has had the following profound impacts on my personal spirituality:
1) Traveling the world and climbing with people of other faiths, I have learned that people who don't know about (and don't care to know about) Jesus are very happy the way they are. When you realize that there are millions of people alive now (and many more that have lived in the past) that really have had no way to even hear about Jesus, you have to wonder how a compassionate God could make acceptance of Jesus a prerequisite for salvation. I now have what I call the "desert island" test for religion: If I were marooned by myself on a desert island with no cultural/ historical context, could I be a full practicing member of a given religion? God would have to be cruel indeed to only allow the possibility of salvation to those who might be lucky enough to hear about one man who lived a long time ago...The only universally accessible part of experience for every human being is interaction with the natural world- which brings me to my next point:
2) Climbing lets you experience things that give you what I call the "direct experience of the divine"... When you are in stunningly beautiful places with people that you trust and care about, and you are frequently have the opportunity to carefully consider your own impermanence and mortality... I think most people reevaluate their place in the universe sometime during their climbing career. For me, the only thing that I am sure has not been tainted by the hand of man is the natural world. Anything written, spoken, or handed down has been subject to the imperfect understanding and the bias of men. When I feel quartzite under my fingertips, I think of the origin of those crystals deep in some ancient batholith, uplifted over millions of years in to a great range of mountains, eroded by wind an rain, washed to the sea down an ancient river, delivered to the beach of an ancient sea, and then tossed about by wind and waves until nothing was left but a fine sand. Then the world changed again, the sands of the beach were buried deeply, fused by heat and pressure and time, folded into great anticlines and synclines and exposed as the rock we climb today as the softer shales and limestones were washed away.. I am humbled. Understanding the place of humanity within the context of the natural order helps me remember that we are the product of a long process that is much greater than we are. To think that humans are the reason that the universe was created is the worst kind of hubris.. Which brings me to my final point:
3) The only thing that "bothers" me about the Christian viewpoint is the notion that the universe is one big resource for mankind to consume. If you believe the world was created for us, the animals, plants, and land are there for us to do with as we please, and if you believe that we have a "blank check" to "be fruitful and multiply," how can you really respect and take care of the little bit of wilderness that we have left? If God is going to come down, take everything away, and take the people (who have been lucky enough to hear about Jesus) to heaven, why would you worry about respecting the natural world? This is what I think about when I see someone ask "how can use climbing to bring people to Christ?"
I would ask yourself instead how you might let the miracles of the natural world help you gain insight into yourself and perhaps into the divine.
Climbing has taught me to be humble, to listen quietly to the world, not to judge, to be grateful for the wonderful world we have, to be patient, to have compassion for all things, to find joy in the company of friends, to realize how brief our time here really is....but most of all that redemption doesn't come from a book or historical figure or a certain religion, but instead is freely available to anyone simply willing to learn from the "divine" that surrounds us all.
Bottom line is, if climbing is going to be a tool for your ministry, more power to you... but please don't try to "save" me, and please try to keep the noise level down... a lot of us are out there to get away from church...
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tgreene
May 2, 2004, 7:31 PM
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Excellent post, but again, the reason I don't feel a topic such as RELIGION can properly be discussed on a forum dedicated to climbing... Nor should it, becuase we all have individual belief systems that will in one manner or another be stepped on by someone elses.
As for #3 though, I personally tend to believe that GOD placed man here, to "tend to his garden". While it has been given to us to use, we must also protect it so it can continue to sustain us. IE: You can shear a sheep many times, but it can only be slaughtered once!
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nagatana
May 2, 2004, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: I am sorry that you have such limited vision
The original poster seemed to have trouble relating climbing to Christianity, but wanted to, and I felt that was a silly byproduct of his Church.
Yes, climbing is a spiritual experience, but if you can't relate it to Christianity, don't sweat it. My view of God is a dude who simply wants you to have a good time on Earth while "tending his garden at the same time." He doesn't need you to be thinking 'bout him all the time, and if you're mind is elsewhere while climbing, you'll forget how enjoyable climbing is. Enlightenment is not a forced process, so just focus on the climbing and let the rest come naturally.
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qacwac
May 2, 2004, 9:28 PM
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My pastor has used my motivation and love for climbing to encourage me in the Christian life. An example he used was that when I go and climb and don't send a certain problem, I don't give up and quit climbing because I failed. Instead I think, "I didn't get you this time, but I will. I'm going to train and try again and keep trying until I can do you." The Christian life is very similar in that it is filled with failings, but when we do sin and fall short we shouldn't throw up our hands and say "Oh well, I sinned. I'll never progress in the Christian life and never be a godly man." (which is the way I often feel) but rather, "I may have failed but God forgives and by His grace I AM going to be holy."
That's just one.
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jpearl
May 2, 2004, 10:01 PM
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Wow, is this a juicy topic or what (then again, whad'ya expect on RC.com)?
As I stated earlier, even though I am an observant Jew, my climbing experience is niether "religious" nor "spiritual". It is just fun. When I sit back and reflect on climbing, I merelly ponder on what physically and mentally went into sending a route or a problem. I think about my strength and conditioning training in a gym, and if it translates efficiantlly to the outdoors. I think about my skills and techniques, what they are and how to improve on them. I enjoy the mental sportsreel I get to play back in my head at night (narrated by Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwin of cycling commentary fame).
Yeah, the mountains, crags, and boulders we climb are at times beautiful to behold. There is a pleasure to sending a route and stopping to enjoy the view before lowering. There is a sense of accomplishment finally powering through that crux or solving that problem. No, I don't try to define climbing in terms of "religion" or "spirituality". I define climbing by climbing itself. I let it take on its own identity, and that's how I relate to it all.
Now if PrAna would just make a cool bouldering yamulke, I'd be all set!
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scuclimber
May 2, 2004, 10:01 PM
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Not all Christians live by the "be fruitful and multiply" ethic. Please don't generalize. :wink:
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supe
May 2, 2004, 10:01 PM
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A great tie in that I can see is prayer. Imagine if every climb you did you never talked to your belayer. It would be very hard and very dangerous to climb. The same is true for life. God is always there, and wants more than anything to help us. Along those lines you could tie in beta. True alot of us think its best to climb the route straight up with no help at all, but many times no matter how hard we try we can't make it. just like before, god is there to help us, all we have to do is humble ourselves and ask.
Now, along other lines, I see climbing as a very spiritual experience. I certainly don't go there instead of church, nor do I pray the whole time I'm climbing. I do on the other hand, admire the beauty and magnificence of Gods creations! Who's to say that maybe God isn't a climber, and maybe its him creating all of these awesome climbs all over the place. he just free solos them all and doesn't need to place any bolts!
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calcaneus
May 2, 2004, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: Not all Christians live by the "be fruitful and multiply" ethic. Please don't generalize. :wink:
I'm sorry- didn't mean to generalize. I know there are many Christians that believe in parts of the Bible and not others, and I think that's a good thing. (also- I hope I'm not mis-remembering.. that is from Genesis, isn't it?)
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10ftdrp
May 2, 2004, 11:06 PM
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Thanks everyone with the constructive comments and those with other view points i was entertaind by your posts. maybe i was wrong to use the word christianity and i probably should have used faith and that would have killed most of the present arguements. I can assure you we won't be making a spectacle of ourselves trying to "save" random people that walk though the gym... personally if someone doesn't ask me about religion its easier to just not talk about it... i don't mean u shouldnt be proud of your religion you should but i can understand how some christians can be hypocrits (i cant spell) and try to force their religion on other people...
~10FtDrp
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crzdriver
May 3, 2004, 12:14 AM
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"Church," the word as we know it, is not mentioned one time in the Bible. So just go with that. We get "church" from what they called an assembly of people. Church groups commonly come out to our local gym. I just see it as another form of fellowship and worship. Don't put a lesson or object into it. As a former post stated, good belay technique is more important than risking an early encounter with the Messiah because someone had too much "faith" in the equipment! Good luck with your endeavor!
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