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taino
May 12, 2004, 4:05 AM
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First and foremost, this is not a troll. I sent this as an email to the owner of my local gym, and am currently awaiting a response. Your thoughts are welcome.
T
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I was climbing with someone at {my local gym} tonight. They were just getting back into it after a year-long hiatus; they knew how to belay, but they were rusty. I offered to go over it with them; kind of like I normally offer to do with new people with whom I climb to assess their skill level, and what one might do as well when they see that someone's belay technique is questionable. They went to get a harness, and were told by a staff member that they'd have to take a beginner lesson - and that I wasn't allowed to show anyone how to belay. Nonetheless, AFTER the sub-10 minute beginner lesson was given, I still had to show my partner how to belay because the staff member did sweet F.A. by way of instruction, and my partner was still very hesitant about belaying.
I approached the staff member afterwards, and politely asked why things had been handled the way they were; I was told (quite rudely) that it was a
"money issue", that I was taking money away from them (the staff member), and that I wasn't allowed to teach anyone (note that I wasn't "teaching" anyone) - and yes, there were witnesses to both the words and tone. Now, I think that staff get {a set compensation} per beginner lesson - at least, that's what I got when I worked there. Considering that the staff member did little in the way of a lesson, and I still found mistakes when I went over my partner's belay technique (the staff should have caught the mistakes), I firmly believe that it's reasonable to be just a bit put-out by the fact that apparently the prevailing thoughts at {my local gym} is that it doesn't matter if the belayer knows what they're doing as long as they pay their money for a beginner lesson? If I'd been told that it's a matter of insurance, or that {the gym} is stepping up (finally) and taking responsibility for the belaying situation (no mandatory belay tests), I'd have no problem with it. However, I've taught people how to belay at that bloody gym - and done it the correct way, not the gri-gri specific, indoor, get-'em-on-the-wall-quick method prevalent in prior years - and now I'm told that I can't refresh someone's memory while the staff making those statements does such a piss-poor job that I have to do it anyway to save my own life? I find this completely unacceptable.
{snip rest of email}
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climbingurlie
May 12, 2004, 4:14 AM
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You know, I can see why they would want to teach the person themselves only for safety reasons. Money reasons shouldn't affect the decision. That employee should be fired if he could not fully re-train a climber. I agree that it was stupid that you couldn't teach them. If you are able to safely teach, then you should be allowed to. If you were polite about the entire thing (which it sounds like you were), then it just reflects your good character as a person and a responsible climber. That staff member (which sounds like was really rude) doesn't have a good reflection of character. It really is sad when money comes above the safety of someone.
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taino
May 12, 2004, 4:19 AM
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In reply to: You know, I can see why they would want to teach the person themselves only for safety reasons.
I agree, and if that had been their answer there would have been no further discussion needed. However, as the rest of the note shows... *shrug* FWIW, the gym is in the process of initiating mandatory belay testing, and is setting up a standardized way to teach belaying; unfortunately, while some staff want to teach belaying in such a way that it allows people to belay with whatever device they have (ATC, etc), most of the staff are still in the "gri-gri specific, etc etc" mode of thinking - which does more harm than good, IMHO, because it creates lazy belayers.
T
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climbingurlie
May 12, 2004, 4:25 AM
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[quote="taino]...while some staff want to teach belaying in such a way that it allows people to belay with whatever device they have (ATC, etc), most of the staff are still in the "gri-gri specific, etc etc" mode of thinking - which does more harm than good, IMHO, because it creates lazy belayers.
T
Yeah, it's definitly a sad issue. I think that if they're gonna have to teach how to belay, they need ONE belay device. My gym only allows gri-gris. BUT, I was taught (and the way I teach) is how to use it without relying on the mechanics. It might as well be an ATC, but with a little bit more so that I'm not killed while belaying people twice the size of little me. Ya know... Maybe you and I, Taino, should just set up our own Utopian gym. :P
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taino
May 12, 2004, 4:30 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...while some staff want to teach belaying in such a way that it allows people to belay with whatever device they have (ATC, etc), most of the staff are still in the "gri-gri specific, etc etc" mode of thinking - which does more harm than good, IMHO, because it creates lazy belayers. T Yeah, it's definitly a sad issue. I think that if they're gonna have to teach how to belay, they need ONE belay device. My gym only allows gri-gris. BUT, I was taught (and the way I teach) is how to use it without relying on the mechanics. It might as well be an ATC, but with a little bit more so that I'm not killed while belaying people twice the size of little me. Ya know... Maybe you and I, Taino, should just set up our own Utopian gym. :P
:roll: Heaven forbid. I'd never get to climb. :lol:
I teach it the same way, BTW, and my gym also only allows their own gri-gris and pre-tied fig8s (double-clip in). *shrug* We'll see what happens.
T
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climbingurlie
May 12, 2004, 4:34 AM
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Pre-tied 8s??? Wow... I didn't think 8s even really existed anymore. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where that gym is headed.
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c-money
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May 12, 2004, 7:54 AM
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No gym is going to let someone come in off the street and teach their friends, and I certainly wouldn't want to climb at a gym that would let people do so... It only takes one climber being dropped to ruin your whole day.
I can understand a gym's perspective on the money aspect: they paid for the ropes, belay devices, holds, rent. etc (would you give your gear to a stranger so that they could teach their friends?), and gyms need to be able to recoup their costs somehow. A climbing gym is supposed to be a business, after all.
But, if you are paying to be taught belaying, they are certainly obliged to teach you how to belay, and observe you belaying until you are solid. If you pay for a lesson, a lesson needs to be provided.
Hopefully there are other gyms/climbing options in your area...
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wyattwyattwyatt
May 12, 2004, 2:20 PM
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In reply to: No gym is going to let someone come in off the street and teach their friends, and I certainly wouldn't want to climb at a gym that would let people do so...
Actually, I was in a gym that DID allow this and it worked out much better than gyms that i have been to that require lessons.
i took my brother (who had never belayed before aside from using a gri gri) to the climbing gym at cornell university. in order to belay, u have to pass a test. when i informed them that i knew how to belay but my brother didnt, i was allowed to teach him in a special area (there is a horizontal line painted on the wall that u cant climb past). once that was done, we both took and passed the test and had a great time climbing.
i contrast that with my experience at a gym in connecticut. i had planned on going with my girlfriend as a way of introducing her to the wonderful sport of climbing. as expected, there was a belaying test that was required, but i was informed that i would not be allowed to teach her to belay within the gym. if she wanted to learn to belay, she would have to take a lesson which cost 70$ -- on top of the daily fee!
so here we have a girl curious about climbing who would be forced to shell out (after equipment rentals, daily fee, and lesson) nearly 100$ just to see if she likes it!! absolutely ridiculous.
but cost is not the only issue here -- i am upset about the safety implications of this policy as well. read on...
not willing to pay this ridiculous amount, i decided to teach her myself at an outdoor location. she progressed steadily, but due to her complete lack of experience and my high standards (its my life in her hands after all), it took several lessons before i felt she was ready.
we returned to the gym where we took the belaying test -- which was a complete joke, took all of 20 seconds, and in no way proved that she was ready (although she was) to belay.
if she had taken their hour long lesson in accordance with their policy, there is no way she would have been a safe belayer. after all, it took several practice days with me before she was good. sure she would have passed their absurdly minimal test, but she would not have been safe. BECAUSE SHE NEEDED TIME AND A PLACE TO PRACTICE HER SKILLS.
so not only is this gym and others with similar policies screwing new climbers out of a lot of money, they are creating safety problems by limiting a belayers education to one quick lesson.
like cornell, all gyms should have a place where new belayers can be taught and practice-- either by their friends or by gym staff. then, they should have a comprhensive belaying test. saves climbers money, and its safer too.
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robmcc
May 12, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: No gym is going to let someone come in off the street and teach their friends, and I certainly wouldn't want to climb at a gym that would let people do so... It only takes one climber being dropped to ruin your whole day.
The gym I climb in does exactly this. Whenever I take a new climber there, *I* teach them how to belay. A beginner's class is available, but I never recommend that anyone take it. I don't recommend against it, either. Wanna take it, go ahead. The gym DOES have a belay test. It's ridiculous to expect everyone to take the newbie-learns-to-belay-class. I'd been climbing for years before the first gym I ever walked into was even built.
In reply to: I can understand a gym's perspective on the money aspect: they paid for the ropes, belay devices, holds, rent. etc (would you give your gear to a stranger so that they could teach their friends?), and gyms need to be able to recoup their costs somehow.
Huh? Would I _give_ my gear to a stranger? No, probably not. Would I rent it? Sure. If I were a gym, would I expect to be able to create an artificial demand by insisting that people don't teach belaying? No way. Would I insist that every climber have a belay device just so I could get an extra buck or two on the rental? No. If my gym _DID_ do this, I'd just say feck that, come out to the parking lot and I'll show you, then take the test.
In reply to: A climbing gym is supposed to be a business, after all.
Yes it is, and successful businesses fill a real demand. The real demand the gym fills for me is providing a wall, a roof, lighting, climate control., and the odd snack. Forcing me to pay for other things I don't want or need would probably be enough to make me climb outside exclusively.
Rob
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drrock
May 12, 2004, 3:29 PM
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edit
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bnjohns
May 12, 2004, 3:43 PM
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Yeah, I've decided that a gym is not a good place to learn how to climb -- at least if you plan on climbing outside at some point. They teach defensively, so they can avoid liability questions. I've found on a few occasions that what they teach about lead climbing, in particular, doesn't translate well to the outdoors.
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c-money
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May 13, 2004, 8:43 AM
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Let us clarify some points:
If you know how to belay, you should not have to take any course just to climb in some gym. You should not have to pay for something you don't need.
If you have signed up for a course, the provider should certainly be expected to teach. Tip: if the course is under an hour, you probably are not going to be taught a whole lot... But, if the gym says they will teach you in whatever time frame, they should be responsible for teaching a complete and safe belay technique, and ensuring that their students are solid with it.
While some of the situations (described in posts above) with gyms allowing whomever to teach sound solid, I am not sold. I don't think letting those with unknown skills and possibly no instructional experience teach belaying is necessarily safe.
My experiences with Joe Public taking it upon his/her self to teach their friend to belay have not been so positive. I don't know if you have noticed, but Joe Public doesn't seem so smart all the time. Some Joe's I have seen in action include:
Joe #1: Says to belayer, "don't worry, its (belaying) easy" and proceeds to climb halfway up climbing wall (17 feet). New belayer stares up at Joe, clueless, holding the rope but doing nothing. Joe looks down at loop of slack and his 'student' and says annoyed, while motioning with free hand, "Just pull it like this! Come on, its easy!" Nice lesson format Joe!
Trying to teach someone to belay while you are climbing is incredibly stupid, not to mention dangerous (in case you didn't know).
Joe #2: Climbs to top of route (20 meters). Belayer does not know what to do: Joe forgot to cover lowering in the "lesson". Joe proceeds to scream down instructions. Belayer (girl on date with Joe maybe?) not knowing what to do and getting screamed at, breaks into tears. Smooth, Joe. Nice one.
In a similar situation. I have also seen a Joe get dropped from the top of a route by a belayer who he had not quite brought up to speed on lowering. Nice job of teaching, Joes...
Sure, you always remember the worst cases, and after all that being said, I was taught by a friend at the local crags and I have not maimed anyone yet (after 11 years of climbing). I know there are loads of people out there who can do a great job of teaching belaying, but I can do without having the few that are not so great at it around me, especially in a crowded gym. Sure it would be nice to be able to teach in some gym if I wanted, but I can sure understand why gym owners would not want this potential situation on their hands.
If that means I have to teach my friends to belay outside, that is fine with me.
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wyattwyattwyatt
May 13, 2004, 2:11 PM
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In reply to: My experiences with Joe Public taking it upon his/her self to teach their friend to belay have not been so positive. I don't know if you have noticed, but Joe Public doesn't seem so smart all the time. Some Joe's I have seen in action include: Joe #1: Says to belayer, "don't worry, its (belaying) easy" and proceeds to climb halfway up climbing wall (17 feet). New belayer stares up at Joe, clueless, holding the rope but doing nothing. Joe looks down at loop of slack and his 'student' and says annoyed, while motioning with free hand, "Just pull it like this! Come on, its easy!" Nice lesson format Joe! Trying to teach someone to belay while you are climbing is incredibly stupid, not to mention dangerous (in case you didn't know). Joe #2: Climbs to top of route (20 meters). Belayer does not know what to do: Joe forgot to cover lowering in the "lesson". Joe proceeds to scream down instructions. Belayer (girl on date with Joe maybe?) not knowing what to do and getting screamed at, breaks into tears. Smooth, Joe. Nice one. In a similar situation. I have also seen a Joe get dropped from the top of a route by a belayer who he had not quite brought up to speed on lowering. Nice job of teaching, Joes...
well, i agree with u that there are certainly a lot of idiots out there that should not be left to their devices. however, both of your examples involved unfortunate results that might occur when unskilled climbers/belayers go too high. as i noted in my post, cornell's gym has a line on the wall that climbers with untested belayers (or boulderers without ropes) are not allowed to move past. this simple restriction prevents both unfortunate scenarios u have described. its also cheap -- gyms dont need a separate practice room, just a can of spray paint!
also, if a gym has a test, u dont have to worry about some dumb joe teaching bad habits -- joe's student simply wont pass the belay test.
something else to think about: i know it sounds fine if a gym offers a voluntary class for new belayers; i've seen several people mention that they would simply teach their friend to belay on their own rather than pay the (often exorbitant) price. problem is, this can be a real pain in the ass if u dont own a couple harnesses, rope, anchoring equipment etc. in my case, i only owned one harness, and no anchoring equipment. eventually we looped the rope around a bar we found outside, gave my girlfriend the harness, and i made do with a loop in the rope. worked for our teaching purposes, but it was a pain in the ass and could easily have been avoided if the gym had a way for us to practice there. those without any equipement would simply be screwed, i guess. i just think its unfortunate if someone who wants to try out climbing to see if they like it has to shell out close to a hundred bucks just to find out!
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robmcc
May 13, 2004, 2:31 PM
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Your "Joe" situations are all entirely eliminated by a belay test.
Next?
Rob
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j_ung
May 13, 2004, 2:36 PM
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I think there are a lot of different systems by which gyms attempt to ensure that climbing within their facilities is as safe as possible. I think most of them are sound... in theory. Some of them, however, lack sufficient leadership and quality control from management. Aparently, is one such.
Tai, I think your legitimate beef is with the staff member, for doing a poor job and the management for not ensuring quality of lessons. But just as it's reasonable not to allow anybody off the street to belay without first proving his or her competency, it's reasonable not to allow anybody off the street to teach belaying. By the same logic of the belay test, you would have to first require a belay-teaching test to determine who is and isn't competent teach it. It makes more sense to disallow belay teaching by anyone other than a (properly trained and managed) staff person.
Were I to write a complaint to this particular gym, I think I would have solely addressed the lack of quality of the belay lesson, rather than the requirement to take one. I think you'd stand a better chance of getting the result you want (which I assume is a safer and more customer-centric environment). I also would have mentioned the employee by name.
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taino
May 13, 2004, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: I think there are a lot of different systems by which gyms attempt to ensure that climbing within their facilities is as safe as possible. I think most of them are sound... in theory. Some of them, however, lack sufficient leadership and quality control from management. Aparently, is one such.
Tai, I think your legitimate beef is with the staff member, for doing a poor job and the management for not ensuring quality of lessons. But just as it's reasonable not to allow anybody off the street to belay without first proving his or her competency, it's reasonable not to allow anybody off the street to teach belaying. By the same logic of the belay test, you would have to first require a belay-teaching test to determine who is and isn't competent teach it. It makes more sense to disallow belay teaching by anyone other than a (properly trained and managed) staff person.
Were I to write a complaint to this particular gym, I think I would have solely addressed the lack of quality of the belay lesson, rather than the requirement to take one. I think you'd stand a better chance of getting the result you want (which I assume is a safer and more customer-centric environment). I also would have mentioned the employee by name.
J_ung, you're correct - my beef is with the staff member. However, it's also with the gym in question.
The same evening this all went down, at least two other members brought in "friends" of theirs - who ~obviously~ had never attempted to belay at all (I mean, it really was obvious) - and told the staff member in question that "they'd show them the ropes"; one of those members has no business (IMHO) teaching anyone anything about climbing, as he barely knows himself. The staff member agreed, and let them be. Also, I used to work at the gym as staff; I've taught my share of people how to belay, with and without the gri-gri, and made sure that they were comfortable - even if it took longer than 15 minutes. :roll: I took as much time as necessary, and ignored the clock. The staff member in question knew this. Seeing as how the staff knew that I knew how to properly teach someone - and I wasn't going to be teaching, just jogging my partner's memory - I'm certainly concerned that I was prevented from doing that while someone else who had no business doing it was teaching their complete newbie friend how to belay. If it's going to be a rule that there's no teaching except for staff, it has to be across the board - not arbitrary.
Frankly, I think the staff member saw that my partner is FINE, and wanted to sneak some time.
Also, in the original email to the owner, I did mention the staff's name. However, as you can see I took all names out of the post online, including the name of the gym.
T
Edited to correct spelling of name.
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j_ung
May 13, 2004, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: The same evening this all went down, at least two other members brought in "friends" of theirs - who ~obviously~ had never attempted to belay at all (I mean, it really was obvious) - and told the staff member in question that "they'd show them the ropes"; one of those members has no business (IMHO) teaching anyone anything about climbing, as he barely knows himself. The staff member agreed, and let them be.
I still think that the problem isn't the requirement to take the lesson, but the inconsistent way that the lessons are taught and, it seems, that this requirement is a wee bit subjective. This seems like a case of a bad/badly-trained staff person and poor management, rather than policy gone arwy.
edited 'cause i keep screwin up.
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taino
May 13, 2004, 3:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The same evening this all went down, at least two other members brought in "friends" of theirs - who ~obviously~ had never attempted to belay at all (I mean, it really was obvious) - and told the staff member in question that "they'd show them the ropes"; one of those members has no business (IMHO) teaching anyone anything about climbing, as he barely knows himself. The staff member agreed, and let them be. I still think that the problem isn't the requirement to take the lesson, but the inconsistent way that the lessons are taught and, it seems, that this requirement is a wee bit subjective. This seems like a case of a bad/badly-trained staff person and poor management, rather than policy gone arwy. edited 'cause i keep screwin up.
I see your point, and do actually agree with you. Taking the lesson should be mandatory, if one doesn't know how to belay. The gym is moving in that direction, but hasn't yet arrived. :roll:
My issues are: 1) the staff arbitrarely decided who needed a lesson, passing over other, obvious, beginners who were then taught by friends; 2) the staff gave the lesson poorly-enough that, when I went over it with my partner, I discovered things that should NOT have passed a belay test; 3) the staff was very rude and argumentative when I asked about it; 4) the staff said that it was a "money issue" - not an insurance issue, or a new gym policy, or even a safety issue (frankly, I'm way safer than the staff member). It was a "money issue" - I was taking money away from the staff member in question.
T
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j_ung
May 13, 2004, 3:16 PM
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I'm no longer involved with the management at my local gym, but I do still set routes. When we opened our doors six years ago, one of the primary goals was to operate a gym in which this type of thing didn't happen... ever. The owners and I had all seen what happens when good climbing gyms go bad and we swore up and down that it wouldn't happen in ours. We embarked on an aggressive training strategy for all staff at all levels.
I think that it's still a very well-run facility, but let's face it, sometimes crappy employees sneek through the cracks. I would hope that if someone had a similar problem at our place, he or she would speak up about it like you did. Hopefully, the manager can tell that this particular employee is dragging his gym down and acts to stop it.
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taino
May 13, 2004, 3:28 PM
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*sigh*
Sadly, this staff member is one of the managers - and has been there for about 8 years. *shrug*
We'll see.
T
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robmcc
May 13, 2004, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: Sadly, this staff member is one of the managers - and has been there for about 8 years. *shrug*
:shock:
The only person who should be continually associated with a gym for 8 years is an owner.
Rob
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j_ung
May 13, 2004, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sadly, this staff member is one of the managers - and has been there for about 8 years. *shrug* :shock: The only person who should be continually associated with a gym for 8 years is an owner. Rob
Damn right! Therein lies the problem!
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wyattwyattwyatt
May 13, 2004, 7:26 PM
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can somebody explain to me why its a bad idea for a gym to let a friend teach you to belay if its done below a certain height and there is a testing requirement at the end?
paying the gym for lessons is all fine and good if you want to shell out close to a hundred bucks, but who wants to pay that much?
i think the only reason more gyms dont do as cornell has done is so that they can take in some extra money.
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