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woffles
May 16, 2004, 8:56 AM
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Don't want to start an argument here. I see there has been plenty of those about grigris. I don't have any experience with these. I've just started doing top rope on rock recently and went to check out the local climbing gym to see what it was like. While there I watched some people using a grigri and noticed the belayer would let go of the brake end of the rope. Really bothered me. How dangerous is that using a grigri?
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tallnik
May 16, 2004, 9:14 AM
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Extremely....
Gri-gris are not safer than other belay devices, and I would argue less so because they often lead to sloppy habits, like taking your hand off the belay device. In fact, gri-gris work on the same principle as a seatbelt, sudden motion causes the device to lock. But I've seen it happen where a slow accelerating fall slides right through the gri-gri. Next time you go to the gym, take the gri-gri and pull a rope through, at first slowly, and then building up to as fast as you can. It will go right through. This is why it is important for the brake hand to stay there, and belay as if normal. The other thing I have seen happen is where the brake hand was not locked off during a fall, and the rope slides through the persons hand and the device. Seen some nasty rope burn from that one, not to mention a deck fall or two. When lead climbing, if the belayer is anchored, gri-gris remove slippage and give at the belay. This means that there is more energy involved in the fall. A dynamic belay is recommended with auto-locking devices, which means unanchored.
That said, if used properly, they're a great tool. Learn how to use everything and then decide for yourself what you like best.
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f2
May 16, 2004, 11:04 AM
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Gri-Gri's are safe. obiously you should keep your hand on the rope at all times is a given but people get comfortable learn there partners and usually know whats going on if they have there hand off the rope, no matter who i'm climbing with the hand is on the rope unless they fall and are hanging and asking for beta then I let go to talk with my hands a lot(I'm in italy my partners are italian and i don't speak italian that well) with rope over 10.2mm in my experience the GRI GRI will hold with no slip but I climb with a 9.7mm (the smallest you can run through and still have it work) so the belayer always has to lock off or the rope will slide when hanging. Just stay on you toes and what you can and can't do with your GRI GRI will come with experience and personal opinion. oh and about the first response the "Next time you go to the gym, take the gri-gri and pull a rope through, at first slowly, and then building up to as fast as you can. It will go right through." this is weird i don't know any body who falls like this but i could be wrong, the grigri is designed for sudden falls.
Be safe, Climb Hard, and Don't Fall.
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punkclimber52
May 16, 2004, 4:03 PM
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I have a separate indoor climbing partner from my outdoor climbing partner. Well i took my indoor partner out to a nice little TR/sport crag that i love. I guess part of this is my fault, but i forgot that this girl had only been outside twice before and wasn't used to an ATC belay device, cuz she always uses grigris in the gym. Well i even had a gri gri but forgot to have her use it.
As she was lowering me from one of the climbs I began accelerating at an incredible speed. I flew past one ledge and in a split second i thought to myself, "hmm, that ledge flew by me pretty fast, i should be smacking the ground pretty soon." And i thought i was going to hit the ground next.
Well, she finally stopped me about 10 ft. above the ground and i looked back, yelled at her, "what the hell are you doing?" and she said "the rope was burning my fingers." Well duh, of course it will when you let it slide through that fast and have to regrab it. That is where grigris come in handy cuz once they let go of the lever it will help stop the fall.
For the most part it was my own fault for forgetting her inexperience with ATCs, i'll never make that mistake again. I'm always putting n00bs on a grigri, no matter how much they've climbed in a gym, or outdoor for that matter, until i'm comfortable with them belaying me.
That being said, I dito everyone in that proper technique is just as important with a gri-gri as it is with an ATC.
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woffles
May 16, 2004, 5:08 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. One other question then. If I'm in the gym and see them using the same hands off technique, even though I'm a noob at this should I say something to them or just ignore it? What's the proper etiquitte on something like this at a gym? I'm not the know-it-all type and wouldn't want to come across like one but I'd hate to see someone get hurt because they put too much trust in the hardware alone.
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tallnik
May 16, 2004, 6:04 PM
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As for the gri-gri test I mentioned. If the person is falling off an overhanging line where they require a lot of slack (does happen buddy :) ) Then the rope can pull through slowly and accelerate with the fall. The other situation is where the climber falls slowly... never seen that happen...
Anyways, in terms of etiquette, you could sidestep the whole issue and casually mention it to one of the supervisors at the gym. Or just go up to them and say, I'm new and all, and I heard it isn't safe to belay like that. See what they say, if they're an asshole, blow them off b/c one day it will be there ass.
Cheers,
Nik
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daisuke
May 16, 2004, 6:18 PM
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is the guy letting the rope go while the climber is on the rock or while the climber is hangdogging, if he was doing it the first way, then that's dangerous, but if he lets go while the climber is hanging there is no real danger of it suddenly letting go unless the rope is under 9.5mm.
the gri gri is completely safe as long as you use it right.
D
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overlord
May 16, 2004, 6:36 PM
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grigri is as safe as the person using it.
if youre a beginner, i strongly reccomend you learn belaying with an ATC. you can get grigri later and youll still have an ATC as a backup (plus its easier to rappel with it), not to mention youll be a better belayer (people tend to get lazy when using a grigri).
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jt512
May 16, 2004, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: Don't want to start an argument here. I see there has been plenty of those about grigris. I don't have any experience with these. I've just started doing top rope on rock recently and went to check out the local climbing gym to see what it was like. While there I watched some people using a grigri and noticed the belayer would let go of the brake end of the rope. Really bothered me. How dangerous is that using a grigri?
This question comes up once a week, and 99% of the responses are wrong. The answers you've gotten so far are no better. If you want the definitive answer, go to the source: Petzl. Go to the Petzl website and download the technical information on the grigri. It explains the only way that Petzl approves that the device be handled. Belay using the technique approved by the manufacturer. Assume any other technique is dangerous.
-Jay
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woffles
May 16, 2004, 7:51 PM
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Thanks a lot for all the answers again. If I see it again I'll probably, nicely say something. The persons was actively belaying while taking their hand off the brake end of the rope. They would pull it out and let go, reach in and grab it again and pull out again while the other person climbed. I'll check out Petzl's web site also. I want to know my facts before I open my mouth. Never liked the taste of my own foot!!
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tradbum
May 16, 2004, 8:25 PM
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Rule of Thumb:
Regardless of the device, the brake hand NEVER leaves the rope until the climber is off belay. The Petzl site is a terrific resource to learn about how to properly use a Gri-Gri. I have one and it's been great, but would never put it in the hands of a newbie. And I won't climb with a complacent GG user. (I once saw a guy making a sandwich while belaying)...
As for the fellow in the Gym, a lot of people think that they "have it figured out" and don't take criticism too well. Don't climb with that person and let Darwin sort 'em out.
Take care,
Smitty
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musicman
May 16, 2004, 9:44 PM
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i was talking to my friend about his GriGri because i want to buy one, if i ever get enough dollars, i was asking him if he really needs the break hand. He said he always keeps it there even though he has caught someone while he was picking a wedgie, but just like tallnik said about the seatbelt a GriGri won't always catch a fall, they are generally quite safe, but never let the break hang off the rope.
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toejam
May 17, 2004, 9:41 AM
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When feeding out rope rapidly for a clip or rapid climber, it is often necessary to slide the brake hand down to hold the GriGri Cam in an open position, (I use the pinky and fourth finger) while pulling rope out with the other hand. When doing this it is necessary to release the brake hand from its grasp, although I do try to keep a thumb hooked around the rope, and regrasp the brake hand as quickly as possible after the feed. There is an element of risk, if the climber were to fall so as not to trigger the cam at that exact moment, however, all things considered I believe this to be a safer method of belaying for sport, than say, standard technique with an ATC. This is covered in the GriGri instructions, which is a must-read.
In reply to: If I'm in the gym and see them using the same hands off technique, even though I'm a noob at this should I say something to them or just ignore it?
To quote Tolkien: "advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill".
I would be very hesitant to offer advice regarding a dangerous activity when you consider yourself a "noob". On the other hand, if you ask the fellow a sincere question regarding a technique you can sometimes accomplish the same goal, or perhaps learn a thing or two, hopefully without ruffling feathers.
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jughead
May 17, 2004, 11:31 AM
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if gri gris are so failsafe and so wonderful, then why do people ever argue about them?
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jt512
May 17, 2004, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: When feeding out rope rapidly for a clip or rapid climber, it is often necessary to slide the brake hand down to hold the GriGri Cam in an open position, (I use the pinky and fourth finger) while pulling rope out with the other hand...
Maybe it would be better to (publicly) emphasize that that technique should be reserved for pulling out rope for a clip, and that otherwise the belayer should strive to keep pace with his partner using the standard two-handed push-pull method to feed rope.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
May 17, 2004, 4:48 PM
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Toejam was the only person in this thread who has made a completely correct response.
f2 was close
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tech_dog
May 17, 2004, 11:23 PM
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I'm a big believer in KISS... Keep it simple, stupid. Unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise, I choose the simple solution.
An ATC is simpler than a grigri, yet still works very well.
There's also the story of the rope that may have been cut by a foreign object being sucked into grigri.
With a traditional belay device, there's not much that can go wrong unless your partner is an idiot. If he's an idiot, you're probably doomed anyway.
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curt
May 18, 2004, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: Toejam was the only person in this thread who has made a completely correct response. f2 was close
IMO, this has been the only completely correct response....
In reply to: grigri is as safe as the person using it.
Curt
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bustloose
May 18, 2004, 7:36 PM
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Tallnik is horribly and fascinatingly WRONG. yes you can slowly pull a rope through a gri gri, when standing of the ground without a climber on the line. but you can't speed that up and have it not lock, no matter how slowly you accelerate. and once you put any kind of weight on the other end of the rope you can't do it at all.
i have NEVER, EVER, heard or seen a case where someone fell SLOWLY and pulled a rope through a gri gri. A sudden force will lock a gri, that's the intention, ALSO, weight will lock a gri.
Tallnik... get a clue dude, you're making newbies scared for no reason.
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: i have NEVER, EVER, heard or seen a case where someone fell SLOWLY and pulled a rope through a gri gri. A sudden force will lock a gri, that's the intention, ALSO, weight will lock a gri.
He wasn't completly wrong. A grigri will not lock up by itself on a low angle slab fall. I believe this is in the directions that come with a grigri.
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jt512
May 18, 2004, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Tallnik is horribly and fascinatingly WRONG. yes you can slowly pull a rope through a gri gri, when standing of the ground without a climber on the line. but you can't speed that up and have it not lock, no matter how slowly you accelerate.
Yeah, you can, especially with a thin or slick rope.
In reply to: ...and once you put any kind of weight on the other end of the rope you can't do it at all.
By "the other end" I assume you mean the climber's end, and again, you are wrong. If the acceleration is low, the grigri may not lock up. The grigri requires a shock force to lock up. Now, if by "the other end of the rope" you meant the brake side of the rope, I would tend to agree with you. By locking off the brake side of the rope, you increase the frictional force felt by the cam, which forces it to rotate even if the climber is accelerating slowly, as when beginning a slide down a slab.
-Jay
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bustloose
May 18, 2004, 8:30 PM
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i feel i must disagree with you guys... i have been climbng on a gri gri for 10 years... and have caught A LOT of falls with it... if you're using a 9 mil rope, then you could pull the rope through by hand and have it not lock, sure, but you don't get that in a climbing circumstance. if you have a climber weight the rope, the gri gri will lock. maybe, if you have a 10 year old climbing, on a TR, with the rope running up through quickdraws, then gri gri won't lock when they let go of the wall... but they won't come down either, cause there is so much friction, and in that case, they haven't really weighted the rope, have they?
can you honestly tell me you can imagine a situation where a climber would FALL so slowly so as not to lock the device? IF this were to occur, it would be so slow that you could casually take hold of the 'live' side of the rope and control it with 2 fingers... gri gri's lock up when people are downclimbing for god's sake. it's not the speed as much as it is the force.
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jt512
May 18, 2004, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: i feel i must disagree with you guys... i have been climbng on a gri gri for 10 years... and have caught A LOT of falls with it... if you're using a 9 mil rope, then you could pull the rope through by hand and have it not lock, sure, but you don't get that in a climbing circumstance.
I have pulled 10.2 mm ropes through a grigri at high speed by hand, by smoothly increasing the speed.
In reply to: if you have a climber weight the rope, the gri gri will lock.
Dead wrong. If the climber weights the rope gradually the grigri may not lock. I've had this happen routinely with new ropes, and it is one reason why you have to lock the rope off with your brake hand.
What causes the cam to lock is friction from the rope, not weight on the end of the rope.
In reply to: can you honestly tell me you can imagine a situation where a climber would FALL so slowly so as not to lock the device?
There are numerous situations in which the device won't lock. One, is if the climber weights the rope slowly when "taking." Another is if the leader starts to slide down a slab. I don't have to imagine such situations because I've held falls in both situations.
In reply to: IF this were to occur, it would be so slow that you could casually take hold of the 'live' side of the rope and control it with 2 fingers...
No. That's a sure way to prevent the cam from locking, and in fact has been the cause of many grigri accidents. However, you can grab the brake end of the rope and lock it off. That adds tension to the rope, increasing the friction, which will cause the cam to rotate and lock.
In reply to: gri gri's lock up when people are downclimbing for god's sake.
If that's true for you, try buying a modern thin rope.
In reply to: ...it's not the speed as much as it is the force.
That is correct. Now, force is proportional to acceleration, so if the climber starts to slowly slide down slab, the acceleration will be low and the resulting force can be below the threshold needed to actuate the cam. Furthermore, as long as the acceleration remains low, the climber can continue to accelerate to a high speed without the cam locking. This phenomenon is, in one manifestation or another, the cause of 99% of grigri accidents. The solution is to let go of the climber's side of the rope, and lock off the brake side of the rope. The added tension produces the shock force needed for the cam to lock.
-Jay
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bustloose
May 18, 2004, 9:15 PM
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dude, do you think i am an idiot?
In reply to: No. That's a sure way to prevent the cam from locking, and in fact has been the cause of many grigri accidents. However, you can grab the brake end of the rope and lock it off. That adds tension to the rope, increasing the friction, which will cause the cam to rotate and lock.
what i meant was, if the climber is falling that slowly, you don't even need a belay device to arrest the fall.... i know how to lock a belay device, thanks for your concern though.
i am surprised (very) and impressed that you have seen that happen so many times. perhaps i don't climb enough slab...
In reply to: If that's true for you, try buying a modern thin rope
don't patronize, it's not polite.
i give up. obviously we have had different circumstances while climbing. me, i have NEVER had a climber slip the rope through a gri gri when weighting it, no matter how slowly, and i have never had someone fall so slowly that the gri gri did not lock it up.
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: i feel i must disagree with you guys... i have been climbng on a gri gri for 10 years... and have caught A LOT of falls with it.
You have been climbing on a grigri for ten years and you have never worn one out to the point that it wouldn't pass a safety check with a 10mm rope?
Climbing ten years doesn't mean what it use to.
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