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glowering
May 21, 2004, 6:18 PM
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I've done some reseach but haven't find any info on these questions. The introduction of the Jumar/ascender is well documented and made a big impact on (big wall) rock climbing, but what about these other advances.
I am interested in the approximate dates the following came into use. Primarily when they became 'standard' in Yosemite/California. Also any information about the person(s) responsible for these changes would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.
1. Waist tie in: When did the tie in go from the climing rope around your waist to a piece of webbing around your waist?
2. Leg Loops: When did the leg loops get added to the waist loop (i.e. diaper/figure 8 leg loops)?
3. Harnesses: When did harnesses come into use? Who introduced them?
4. Rappeling: When did the technique switch from the Dulfer method? Was the caribiner brake method the next method? When did rappel devices (figure 8, sticht plate, or?) come into use?
5. Belaying: When did the technique switch from the body belay? What device was first used for belaying from the waist? Was the Munter hitch ever used as the normal method?
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glowering
May 25, 2004, 2:56 PM
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This is a fantastic article, but it doesn't address the questions I asked. Actually reading that article (in part) led me to wonder about the questions above.
The Dulfer and body belay seem so dangerous compared to the modern methods. When I see photos of people establishing the classics using these techniques I puts me even more in awe.
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rockmaninoff
May 25, 2004, 3:09 PM
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I believe the Whillans sit harness was the first commercial harness. Little more than a couple of pieces of webbing sewn together, there was only one (two-inch?) piece running between the legs for leg/crotch support. BTW, I have sat in the Whillans, and can verify that it caused no permanent damage. :shock:
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Deleted
May 25, 2004, 3:32 PM
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your whillans didn't cause you any damage? geez, rock, did you actually ping off in the thing or just sit? :wink: a good landing in a whillans was oftentimes enough to cause the hardest of the hardmen to be lowered off in the throes of gut-wrencing dry heaves. i don't think it was a matter of poor design, though. hell, don whillans was such a hard-drinkin', hard-fightin' mother's son; he'd been kicked in the nuts in so many barfights i doubt he had any sensation down there when the harness was designed.
the pat littlejohn was a great improvement in terms of adjustability and overall comfort, but would still sufficiently crush yer clackers so as to draw tears.
thank you for dredging up such a painful topic. :wink:
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rockmaninoff
May 26, 2004, 3:06 PM
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You're right, Geo. No whippers in the Whillans for me. I mainly related my sitting experience in order to nip the inevitable speculation about my impotence in the bud.
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May 26, 2004, 3:14 PM
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and a wise man you are. :lol: :lol:
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timstich
May 26, 2004, 4:43 PM
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"The Leader Must Not Fall On His Nuts."
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thegreytradster
May 26, 2004, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: I've done some reseach but haven't find any info on these questions. The introduction of the Jumar/ascender is well documented and made a big impact on (big wall) rock climbing, but what about these other advances. I am interested in the approximate dates the following came into use. Primarily when they became 'standard' in Yosemite/California. Also any information about the person(s) responsible for these changes would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for any info you can provide. 1. Waist tie in: When did the tie in go from the climing rope around your waist to a piece of webbing around your waist? 2. Leg Loops: When did the leg loops get added to the waist loop (i.e. diaper/figure 8 leg loops)? 3. Harnesses: When did harnesses come into use? Who introduced them? 4. Rappeling: When did the technique switch from the Dulfer method? Was the caribiner brake method the next method? When did rappel devices (figure 8, sticht plate, or?) come into use? 5. Belaying: When did the technique switch from the body belay? What device was first used for belaying from the waist? Was the Munter hitch ever used as the normal method?
As most techniques were adopted regionaly at different times, I can only speak to what was happening in S Cal, (Tahquitz, J tree)
1. Waist tie in. Started on a bowline on a coil in 1970. A few people were using swami's then. The advantage of swami's was obvious and they were quickly universaly accepted, utilized by 72 or so.
2. Some sort of leg loop has been around for a long time. I climed with a guy in the Valley in 71 or 72 that had home made leg loops, but they were not commonly used until just before harnesses became common. The same guy had made a home made belay seat with a back rest as well as some other impressive home made soft goods that I never saw commercialy till 10-15 years later.
Diaper slings were a requirement in the Bowline on a coil days for rappels. When you untie from the rope you have nothing to rappel on. everybody carried a custom length double length sling for that. Mine doubled as a gear sling.
The figure eight sling, upside down flip was required knowledge with a bowline on a coil or swami tie in as a prolonged free hang might lead to suffocation. It's a ball breaker though. Nobody led on any kind of leg loop setup.
First commonly avalable harness was the Whillans. It's not in the 1970 Chounard price list, but is in the 72. As previously discussed it had some problems. :shock: Some of us stuck to swami's well into the late 80's. They spread the impact out over the whole lower back and aren't bad at all to fall in.
Rappelling, Techniques other than the Dulfer appear in 1940's military manuals and must go back a lot farther than that.
Diaper seat and carbiner brake bar was a common setup as was the six carabiner method. The Sticht plate came later.
Belaying, The Sticht hockey puck/slinky was the first belay device I remember seeing. mid 70's? Goldline/hip belay worked fine as the rope had exceptionaly low impact strength (Lots of stretch) and the laid rope (twisted) made it easy to hang on to. Kernmantle was a different story. The first time you held a leader fall on that, you had the scars to prove it. That something better was required was obvious.
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jgill
May 26, 2004, 11:54 PM
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Regarding waist tie-ins: Chouinard (and I) used long swamis in the late 1950s and early 1960s in the Tetons, so he must have been using them in Yosemite. I started using webbing wraps around my waist in the mid to late 1950s, unless my memory fails (quite possible). Ditto for the use of carabiners on simple rappel slings (a loop of webbing). Before then I wrapped the rope around my body and endured frictional agony. I never used a belay plate of any sort - don't recall hearing of any at that time.
In the late 1950s (I think) Yvon was doing a long free rappel in S. California and got his shirt caught in the biner, eventually turned upside down, and came close to cutting the rope in desperation before he worked his way out of the fix he was in. At least that's what I recall him telling me afterwards. He may have been by himself at the time. 8^)
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glowering
May 27, 2004, 6:47 PM
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Thank you very much for your responses.
So people still generally used the body belay until the mid 1970s?
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mellpat
May 29, 2004, 1:52 PM
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The Sticht-plate was in general use in my country (Sweden) already in 1969/1970. This belay plate was invented by Fritz Sticht and Hermann Huber (German patent 1927155) and was marketed by SALEWA. It was then used with a screw-gate crab attached to a chest harness. A locally produced seat harness for use with the chest harness was a common sight at cliffs in Sweden in about 1971/72 and also later.
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