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wigglestick
Apr 24, 2002, 8:10 PM
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I picked up the latest issue of Climbing magazine yesterday and there were a couple of articles that directly relate to the rc.com community. I just wanted to know what everyone thought of these articles.
The first issue is the issue of foreign dot coms (sportextreme and barrabes) selling gear at rock bottom prices and how this practice is killing the local climbing shop. The point of the article is that these climbing shops provide a greater service than just selling you gear. Many, though not all, are involved in local and regional access issues and also provide a valuable service by giving free information and advice to climbers who turn around and buy their equipment from dot coms. I have read a few threads on this site about how great sportsextreme is and how cheap they are. I am just wondering if anybody feels an obligation to support their local climbing shops rather than give their money to anonymous dot coms.
The other article was about internet discussion boards (like rc.com) and how they are a good idea gone bad and have turned into electronic sprayfests and battlefields. I also noticed that rc.com was left out of the article and just wanted to know what everybody thought of the article.
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jdtschida
Apr 24, 2002, 8:34 PM
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Although I have not read the article in the magazine, I will comment about buying gear online.
I prefer to buy from online stores that offer cheaper prices because they are cheaper. plain and simple. If the local climbing shops can't see that the online stores offer better prices, then they need to re-think their business plan. If I were running a shop, I would make damn sure my stuff was available on the web. It's not that hard to do, and the web offers a much larger market place.
Now, I know I can go to my local shop and ask personal advise, especially since a good friend of mine is the gym manager, and is a very good climber. Sometimes they do a lot for me in terms of education, so I will spend a little extra on the gear they sell. But if I can save $30 on a GriGri or $75 a rope by purchasing online, then I will buy online.
One other industry where I really hate going to the local shops is cycling, either road or mountain. I can buy a part through a catalog for nearly half what the shop wants! Why would I go to the shop? Half the time they have to order it anyways, so why don't I just order it on my own?
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climbingmusician
Apr 24, 2002, 8:47 PM
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I haven't read the articles. I prefer to buy my climbing gear from local stores. I have EMS and a little store in a near by city that I go to. I don't really shop very much at ems but I occasionally get some stuff there. I bought my climbing shoes from New England Backpakers in Worcester MA. I buy most stuff there one because the gear I learned how to climb with was from there I get a good deal and I can see what I am buying. They are closer from me and like when I bought my shoes they had a little wall to climb so I could check out the shoes before I bought them. I prefer to help support a little store rather than a big company that has high prices. Being able to see what I am buying is a big plus for me.
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killclimbz
Apr 24, 2002, 9:03 PM
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I sometimes order gear over the internet. It has to be a really, really good price, or an item I can't find locally. Otherwise I try to throw my money at the local shops and gyms. These are the people that are in your area that care about the sport. They almost always have good advice and they get to know who you are. You aren't just a customer at REI who is a potential sale. I'm fortunate that in the Denver area we have a couple mom and pop shops. They have great prices and a very cool staff. I always check them first before I look elsewhere for gear.
Another thing I don't like about the chain store like REI or EMS is the fact that the reps always assume you are just getting into climbing. So they give you advice like they are the expert and you have no idea what you are getting into. Often times I find that that rep knows far less than I do. It doesn't matter how many times you have bought shoes from them (or other gear), the rep always has to chime in some worthless advice that you already know. If I wanted advice on the shoes (and other gear) I would ask for it. Maybe I'm a little up tight about this, but I find it really annoying.
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runningitout
Apr 24, 2002, 9:09 PM
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hmmm...sounds like we got ourselves a little microeconomics issue that sounds a lot like bigger issues buzzing politics.we're getting important!
just like we would all, probably, like to buy clothes made in America and not in sweat shops or places where the profits would support crimes against Tibetan monks, most of us aren't key on buying $200 jeans. for the same reason, if someone can sell us what we want at a cheaper price we have a hard time patronizing the companies that may better deserve our hard earned buck.
capitalism is eroding everything, thankfully I live in a bath tub and steal everything I see. WHAT?
with all due respect I wouldn't call EMS a local, small time climbing shop. I have bought things there and I beat myself for it on a very regular basis.
lookin' green,
Lis
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wigglestick
Apr 24, 2002, 9:19 PM
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Just to be clear. We are not talking about all online companies. Take gearexpress.com for example. I have bought stuff from them before and even though they are not my local climbing shop. They are somebodys local climbing shop. But specifically I am talking about the foreign online companies which are able to offer super low prices that are often even lower than the wholesale price to the local climbing shop.
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jdtschida
Apr 24, 2002, 9:37 PM
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I think we need to look at how they are able to sell for so low. My guess is that for some reason or another the manufacturer has chosen to sell to that company at a lower wholesale price than they do for the US companies. I doubt you will get an answer if you ask them though....
Barrabes and Gearexpess.com are obviously making money, although it is common practice to mark some products extremely low, even to the point of taking a loss, in the hopes that the customer will also purchase something that makes a profit. The internet just allows them to have less overhead for their company, and thus they don't need as much profit.
The internet is making the world a global economy for the average customer, and obviously the small local shops are going to suffer for it. All they can do is adapt.
Also, I have been told that many, or at least some, of the major climbing gear companies require that for a store to sell online, they need to already have a physical store for people to shop in. And also if the store offers prices lower on the web then in the actual shop, some manufacturers will possibly not deal with them anymore. Maybe I am wrong here, but it makes sense, especially if the large companies do have normal humans working there who give a crap about the rest of the industry...
I would be interested in discussing this more if other people have different views about online sales practices, but right now I can't think of much else to say about it...
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tim
Apr 24, 2002, 9:47 PM
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Re: screwing local bike stores:
Are you going to have the guy online (or some schmuck at SuperGo or whatever) do your repairs when it breaks? Are you competent enough do re-lace your own wheels, true them, adjust your own derailleurs, and overhaul your bottom bracket when you trash that?
Think about it...
I don't use local climbing stores in DC much because they all suck, but I try to patronize online stores that support organizations like the Access Fund and ASCA, and when I'm in the Gunks and need something, I hit Rock & Snow. North Conway? IME! Asheville -- Black Dome. You get the idea. The good guys are worth paying a premium for. You'll get better beta from them than from any guidebook, as well.
I really miss Mountain High Ltd. (the guys who originally paid Hollan Holmes to make new Ricky Rock Rat cartoons for their ads; now Shoreline uses him) since I could call them up for climbing conditions in the Needles and usually they'd have been up there a day or a week before. That was a really good shop with really good people, I think I remember them saying that they wanted to be able to concentrate on Search & Rescue all the time and couldn't run a shop at the same time. Ah well. Tom (the guy who owns Shoreline) is also quite cool, I have no problem ordering from those guys either.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-04-24 16:38 ]
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andy_lemon
Apr 24, 2002, 9:58 PM
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SPRAY BOARDS:
I looked at this last night. I did not read the whole article when I noticed nothing was going to be said about the best damn rock climbing community on the internet (rc.com). If they would have done a little research (like all journalist should do before they give their own freakin spray about a subject) they would have come up with this place. How the hell can you miss it? It is the largest climbing site on the internet. Also, how the hell do you condem internet climbing forums to spray boards? The same bullshit goes on at climbing gyms and at crags. I forget who wrote this article but I did not think too much thought went into it...
ONLINE GEAR RETAILERS
It is a great bussiness oportunity to sell gear online. But there will always be the people that do not want to take the risk of buying the wrong size shoe, shirt, pants, etc. And there will always be the people that love to get something on the spot. If a gear shop has a true purpose in its community then these internet retailers should not effect them too bad.
Andy
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andy_lemon
Apr 24, 2002, 10:03 PM
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SELLING GEAR SO CHEAP???
Someone mentioned this above... The reason they do this is that every gear manufacture has set a "wholesale price" and a "retail price". People who have retail liscense can buy gear for wholesale prices. Most gear shops just go ahead and mark all gear at the manufacturers recommended retail price. These online retailers are doing the opposite to attract customers. Instead of using the recomended retail price they are putting up banners that say "30% off" etc... when in actuallity they are just resetting the retail price. This is my favorite saying: It is not how much you sell a product for, but how much you sell of the product!"
Andy
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dsafanda
Apr 24, 2002, 10:05 PM
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I think people are missing the entire picture if they try to differentiate between online retailers and the local rock store. Who do you think runs those online sites? Trust me they're not .com millionares. They are the little guy!!
Take Shoreline(www.shorelinemtn.com) for example. They happen to operate near where I live so I see I see the employees climbing at my local gym and happen to know that the owner is a climber at heart.
I buy gear at the lowest price I can find no matter what so it makes no difference to me...but if you really want to support your local climbing community you need to open your eyes a bit. It's not necessarily who you think.
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fo_d
Apr 24, 2002, 10:41 PM
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I have to agree with andy_lemon on the spray boards thing, we get a little bashing going on here but nothing even close to the example given in the mag., they could have put out some info on the good sites too.
As for online retailers, I have excuses, they may or may not be good excuses. I do have some guidelines for myself. REI is really my only local shop, I like REI, the prices are pretty much exactly what the manufacturer's suggest, so when I can afford to buy local I do.
Just FYI, I'm a union member, I have seen my company send some of our work overseas because of cheaper labor, and layoff my fellow employees, so I dont take this subject too lightly.
Les
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jer
Apr 24, 2002, 10:53 PM
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the fact that RC.com was not mentioned was no accident. It was focusing on the unruly ones online. RC is much more sophisticated than those other raunch forums. Consider it a blessing.
Jer
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holygecko
Apr 24, 2002, 10:58 PM
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I see no reason not to buy from the cheapest dealer, climbers aren't frugal people we need all the money we can get, they should just sell cheaper, if they can't then they got into the wronge business, someone else can always sell for less
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krustyklimber
Apr 25, 2002, 1:38 AM
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I was/am a member of another forum/bulletin board, but I don't go there anymore. I found them offensive, there was alot of name calling, downtalking to new climbers, and a definite elite crowd. Beside's the fact that I never did recieve an answer to my queries.
I haven't read the articles mentioned above, because I don't read any of the magizines anymore. I found the articles, and even more the reviews, to be powered by the advertisers. They would never print an article saying The North Face's, or whoever else paid the bills, new whatcha-ma-jigger EXP, was a piece of junk even if it was.
I have visited a few other forums and most seem to, to me, be exactly what the article seems to decribe... Sprayfests and Battlefields! Good thing we aren't like that!
Jeff
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wallhammer
Apr 25, 2002, 2:25 AM
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rc.com rules. i find more useful info on this site YEARS before it makes its way through to the climbing mags. having done a substantial amount of work for a major monthly magazine, i can tell you that they make up half the b.s. they print. if you ever notice when a "major" new advertiser places an add in the mag, they will usually have a "feature" artical on that advertiser. they do this to promote advertising, not because they give a rats ass about their readers. as far as world wide internet shopping is concerned, i feel some of the blame for major price differences goes to the manufactures that are setting different prices for different areas making it tough for the middleman to earn his 30% to 50% markup with any consistancy. (sorry for the mis spells, didnt have time for spell check)
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