|
blueindian
Jul 10, 2004, 7:08 PM
Post #2 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 13
|
you don't, it's a belay loop.
|
|
|
|
|
jcr
Jul 10, 2004, 7:34 PM
Post #3 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 317
|
Dont pay attention to the loop and tie into your harness the same way you tied in with the no-loop harness. That loop is a belay loop and I suggest just to use it while belaying and always having a backup (maybe a locking biner).
JC
|
|
|
|
|
beesty511
Jul 10, 2004, 8:14 PM
Post #4 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 336
|
There should be a picture of how to tie in on the inside of the waist belt. In any case, thread the rope through that little black loop at the base of the vertical gray loop. The end of the rope will be pointing at you. Then, run the rope along the backside of the vertical gray loop and up through the waist belt. The vertical gray loop probably attaches to the waist belt through a loop, and the rope should go through that same loop. The configuration your shooting for is for the rope to go around the leg loop connection strap and around the waist belt. The little black loop at the base of the vertical gray loop, and the loop in the waist belt where the vertical gray loop attaches to the waist belt keep the rope centered in the middle of the climber's body. The strength of the tie in comes from the leg loop connection strap and the beefy waist belt.
The vertical gray loop is the belay loop, and it's very strong. You attach a locking carabiner to the belay loop and you attach your belay device to the locking carabiner. That is the only way the manufacturer recommends attaching your belay device.
|
|
|
|
|
tradbum
Jul 10, 2004, 8:18 PM
Post #5 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2004
Posts: 128
|
Rule of thumb: pare down to the least common denominator. If the belay loop fails you're fubar'd, but what it's stitched through will still be there, so go through that instead. As JC said, ignore the loop and tie in directly into the harness points.
For me, belay loops are good for Fifi's and daisy's and that's about it.
Climb safe,
Smitty
|
|
|
|
|
reefer
Jul 10, 2004, 8:23 PM
Post #6 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2004
Posts: 12
|
thanks all!
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Jul 10, 2004, 9:00 PM
Post #7 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
rrradam moved this thread from General to Beginners.
|
|
|
|
|
chalked4dyno
Jul 10, 2004, 9:32 PM
Post #8 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 150
|
I use the belay loop just for belaying.. not because i'm a daisy, or fairy or what not. I use it because I feel it's safer. The more you stuff into a biner, the more chance you have of it side-loading. Using the belay loop means your biner will only be pulled in one direction, and greatly reduces the risk of side-loading. Even though it's adding another link in the chain, the belay loop is much stronger than any side-loaded carabiner.
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Jul 13, 2004, 9:30 AM
Post #9 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2577
|
I both tie in and clip my HMS for belaying to the belay loop. If there'd be any concern of it not to be safe you wouldn't belay on it, true? The advantage of tying in there is you can easyly get it repaired (change the loop) when it's worn out.
Some people recommend only using it to belay and tie in parallel to the belay loop into the harness directly. It's kind of personal preference I think. Should be bomber both ways.
- Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jul 13, 2004, 1:21 PM
Post #10 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: I both tie in and clip my HMS for belaying to the belay loop. If there'd be any concern of it not to be safe you wouldn't belay on it, true? The advantage of tying in there is you can easyly get it repaired (change the loop) when it's worn out. Some people recommend only using it to belay and tie in parallel to the belay loop into the harness directly. It's kind of personal preference I think. Should be bomber both ways. - Daniel
Daniel, you're incorrect.
The concern with tying into the belay loop is that after repeated nylon-to-nylon contact under load, over time you will have generated enough friction to significantly weaken the belay loop. What you are doing is in direct contradiction to commonly accepted safety procedures and the manufacturer's recommendation. I can say this without knowing who made your harness, because every manaufacturer recommends that you not do it the way you just told everybody to do it.
The parts of your harness that are supposed to have a rope in direct contact -- crotch strap, swami belt (or its specified tie-in loop) -- are reinforced precisely to absorb that kind of abuse. Your belay loop isn't.
Have you read the literature that came with your harness? What does it say to do?
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Jul 13, 2004, 1:44 PM
Post #12 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2577
|
In reply to: The parts of your harness that are supposed to have a rope in direct contact -- crotch strap, swami belt (or its specified tie-in loop) -- are reinforced precisely to absorb that kind of abuse. Your belay loop isn't. Have you read the literature that came with your harness? What does it say to do?
I fact the description of my belt says the same you do. As long as I've never seen anyone doing it that way and my "mentor" (who is a professional climbing trainer) does tie in directly, I never thought of it being not save. In addition the material of the belay loop is exactly the same as the other parts of th belt - just doubled. Can't see why the belay loop should wear out quicker.
I'm still open for new facts, hope that noone takes my posts for the last truth. I'll take you for serious and will check for further info then.
- Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jul 13, 2004, 2:38 PM
Post #13 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
Cudos to tisar for an open mind.
|
|
|
|
|
jumpingrock
Jul 13, 2004, 6:23 PM
Post #16 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 5692
|
The way I heard that issue described (ie tying into the belay loop problem) is that as you are falling and your rope is wiping around widely and stretching and you are bouncing and everything is going CRAZY the tie-in knot will obviously be doing the same causeing lots of friction on your belay loop. Therefore, in theory, it could saw right through your belay loop if the conditions are correct. Of course you might say, the odds of that happening are so small they are insignificant. Well the same can be said about the rope coming free when you back clip. There is probably nothing that will definatly kill you by tying directly into your belay loop but why not add several pieces of redundency by tying in through your two hard points. Takes the same amount of time and is definatly a little bit safer. The last thing I want to be worrying about when I am 10 ft over my last piece is about my harness.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Jul 13, 2004, 6:36 PM
Post #17 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
Two things:
1) The belay loop is doubled tubular webbing. Softer, more pliable and better for carabiners of all sorts. The tie in points are flat webbing, which takes abrasion better. Its all in the weave.
2) Clipping your belay carabiner to through your tie-in points is a recipe for disaster. It is not free to move as such and is incredibly easy to cross load. Moreover, it moves the entire system much closer to your harness, making snags easier and escaping the belay much MUCH harder. There are very few harnesses available today that do not have a full strength belay loop. In Black Diamond testing, the last piece to fail tended to be the belay loop.
We can (and do) trust our lives to only one piece of equipment on a regular basis. 1 rope. 1 waist belt on our harness. 1 piece of pro. The belay loop is constructed in such a way that our faith in it is not misplaced. Do not cling to the misplaced belief that having two pieces of anything will automatically make the situation safer. By clipping through the tie in points, one creates a classic American Death Triangle. Only this time, instead of a flexible sling connecting the three points, its a stiff carabiner. And with the way most people rig it, the load will go right across the gate.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jul 13, 2004, 6:45 PM
Post #18 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
In reply to: And with the way most people rig it, the load will go right across the gate.
Since you're better at it than I, you should explain why this is bad for those who may read this and not know.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Jul 13, 2004, 10:49 PM
Post #19 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
In reply to: In reply to: And with the way most people rig it, the load will go right across the gate. Since you're better at it than I, you should explain why this is bad for those who may read this and not know.
There's the catch-22. If you rig it with the gate against your body, you'll cross load it with the tie in points against the gate in the event that the load doesn't go straight up. If you rig it with the spine of the biner against your body, now the rope will be on the gate in the same situation.
Either way, there's a fall coming on the weakest part of a carabiner. Most carabiners will fail around 7-10 kN of force on the minor axis. That's about 1500lbs. In a sport climbing type fall, you can get dangerously close to that. Worse still, you can minor axis load the crab if you're doing something foolish like lying down while belaying (a distinctive possibility on a large belay ledge). Lastly, the threads on the average locking carabiner will shear out at around 100lbs. So if your carabiner does shift, the locking mechanism will get stripped right off if the fall is of any reasonable size. And now you're belaying with a non-locking carabiner.
The safe way is to use the belay loop, as the designers intended.
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Jul 15, 2004, 10:55 AM
Post #20 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2577
|
Here's a description I found on the Edelrid homepage.
This is still not any kind of advice as long I've spoken to different people about that - getting two opinions per question. I suppose that it depends on manufacturer, construction and the material of the belay loop (is there perhaps anything like a "multi purpose loop"?).
I've added my ocun zeeper harness to gear section and my profile so you can take a look at it. Perhaps this clears things out.
- Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Jul 15, 2004, 11:56 AM
Post #21 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: Here's a description I found on the Edelrid homepage.
Yes, I would also be confused if this was my primary source for information. To me, it reads like Euro-logic (no offense intended).
The greatest and winningest argument I can think of is the anti- jumble-cluster-feck one. You're hanging out at a belay ledge, tied into your leg loops & swami like everyone advocates (for plenty of other good reasons). You're belaying your proud leader with locker and device clipped to the belay loop on your harness. Everything goes smoothly. You can control the rope with ease, as your belay device is extended slightly from your body.
Okay so now you've decided to be recalcitrant and do things another way. Same scenario. You've tied into your belay loop, from which you're also belaying. Everything gets tangled. It is a struggle to control the rope. When it's finally your turn to climb, after having given a really terrible belay, you find that your tie-in know, now extended from your body, smacks you about your middle and makes your urinary urgency even more urgent.
Another reason: do it the same as everyone else. Not just to fit in, mind you (some people are gonna hate this pseudo-argument, but bear with me), but having all particpants tying in and belaying the same way makes it way easier to identify if anyone's royally screwed it up.
'Kay?
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Jul 15, 2004, 12:24 PM
Post #22 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2577
|
"Euro-logic" is a good one... I have recognized by now that there seem to be different behaviors on some subjects between US an Europe. Perhaps it's the fact that every European (at least German) is obligated to be health insured 8^) .
I note that Americans seem to be much more aware of security aspects than we are - that's why I'm happy to learn from rc.com. Seems a little overdone to me sometimes, but hey: Better know the best way and decide, than to die in ignorance.
Said I'll give the whole thing a second thought - and I will. Till I find a real disadvantage in doing this, I'll follow your suggestions. Pleased :wink: ?
Thanks to all of you!
- Daniel
PS: Had to look up for "recalcitrant" in a dictionary. Allways was, allways will be - good to know.
|
|
|
|
|
dontfall
Jul 15, 2004, 12:36 PM
Post #23 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 31, 2003
Posts: 2798
|
Just boulder....
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Jul 15, 2004, 12:45 PM
Post #24 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
In reply to: I use the belay loop just for belaying.. not because i'm a daisy, or fairy or what not. I use it because I feel it's safer.
I'd tell you what a fifi and a daisy are, but it's getting hard to type doubled over the way I am....
|
|
|
|
|
thun
Jul 15, 2004, 2:32 PM
Post #25 of 26
(4808 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 201
|
In reply to: Just boulder....
or maybe don'tfall *rimshot* oooh, i crack me up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
