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highminded
Jul 20, 2004, 1:14 AM
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In reply to: It sounds like this way the leader will be required to pull his own slack through the grigri. That would suck. Unless I'm missing something...?
Yep, it does suck, because the grigri is hard to pull rope through (especially fat rope). That's why I don't actually do it (I've just seen others do it).
The technique I use is to pull the rope smoothly with my non-brake hand while pushing it through the grigri with my brake hand, as my partner pulls up the rope. My brake hand never leaves the rope. It takes some coordination between us, and I watch him very closely (when he's in view) so I can feed rope in tandem with his pulls.
The only time it fails is when he gets nervous and yanks on the rope before I can anticipate and feed it to him.
Admitedly, it's not as smooth as an ATC, but we've got weight differential issues and it's safer for him if I have the grigri to assist me in catching his fall.
One final thing: Holding or pinching the cam does go agains the manufacturer's instructions. So you really should know what you're doing if you try it.
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euroford
Jul 20, 2004, 2:27 AM
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for holding hangdogs with an atc just rap the rope around your leg as you would for a no-hands stop on a rapell.
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caughtinside
Jul 20, 2004, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: for holding hangdogs with an atc just rap the rope around your leg as you would for a no-hands stop on a rapell.
That works for holding a hangdog, but it's still a bigger pain than letting the grigri hold the leader.
Plus, it sucks for both leader and belayer if the leader wants to tram back up to the high point to work the sequence. Do this once with an ATC and the advantage of the grigri will be obvious.
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jt512
Jul 20, 2004, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: I like the idea of an auto locking belay device for use on a project where the leader is falling a lot, hanging, falling and so on. My problem is, I don't really understand how to feed rope fast to the leader using a grigri without taking my break hand off the rope. Can some one help me with my delema?
The instructions that come with the grigri (and which are also online at petzl's web site) explain how to do feed rope fast for a clip. Please read them and ignore the responses to this thread. Two or three posts are correct, and the rest are from a bunch of n00bs and gym climbers. Read and follow the manufacturer's instructions.
-Jay
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maracas
Jul 20, 2004, 5:31 PM
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caughtinside Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: grigri: how to feed rope to a leader fast?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bubbatolius wrote:
What ever you do don't pinch the cam.
Lots of experienced climbers pinch the cam. It's acceptable, if you know what you are doing.
I agree, pinching is common, and can be safe if you know what you are doing.
I guess the main problem is that inexperienced belayers could grasp the device tightly if they get scared of someone falling while about to clip, and then it would not lock.
Just my opinion, people might not agree with this.
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over_the_hill
Jul 20, 2004, 6:04 PM
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Try using the Wild Country SRC belay system. I use it specifically for belaying a leader working a project, and it is much better than a Grigri. Bonus: It is half the cost too! Check it out!!!!!!!
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climb_plastic
Jul 20, 2004, 6:36 PM
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Feeding rope is a problem with both the ATC and the gri-gri. With an ATC most people loosen the grip on the brake hand to pull rope through the hand and feed rope through the ATC. Even though you have your brake hand on the rope the ATC will not lock unless you tighten your grip (you can try it if you want). With a gri-gri you pinch the cam and the gri-gri won't lock if you don't let go of the pinch. So with either one you need to be aware of the climber falling when feeding rope. Personally I feel safer falling on a gri-gri because people pinch the gri-gri only to feed rope and therefore are more prepared to let go of the pinch. With the ATC I notice a lot of people keep their brake hands loose most of the time and I'll even look down when falling to make sure the brake hand is tightened and in the down position.
That being said, I use the ATC for belaying myself but after having a drop happen to me I use hand over hand techniques to always keep my brake hand locked.
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far_east_climber
Jul 21, 2004, 1:08 AM
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What you can do is, use your pinky and ring finger to press down on the leveraging bit of the gri gri (on the left hand side of the gri gri) and with your ring and thumb you can still take hold on the rope. Pull out slack with your left. It's fast and efficient.
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rispo
Jul 23, 2004, 3:10 AM
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I find that the rope runs very smoothly through a grigri. Granted I have never used one on lead, but I think you should be able to hold the cam with your non breaking hand and allow the leader to pull his own slack with a little pushing help from your breaking hand if needed. Again I would see how this feels because I have no experience with how easy it slides on a lead especially one with added rope drag. If you do chose to take your breaking hand off the rope to hold the cam remember to just let go and allow the grigri to catch him, many people have accidents because they tence up when their partner starts lowering too fast and don't release the handle. It is not as imperitive that the break hand stay on the rope with a grigri but I would hate to not have it there in the unlikely event the cam should fail to lock.
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jt512
Jul 23, 2004, 3:18 AM
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In reply to: I find that the rope runs very smoothly through a grigri. Granted I have never used one on lead, but I think you should be able to hold the cam with your non breaking hand and allow the leader to pull his own slack with a little pushing help from your breaking hand if needed. Again I would see how this feels because I have no experience with how easy it slides on a lead especially one with added rope drag. If you do chose to take your breaking hand off the rope to hold the cam remember to just let go and allow the grigri to catch him, many people have accidents because they tence up when their partner starts lowering too fast and don't release the handle. It is not as imperitive that the break hand stay on the rope with a grigri but I would hate to not have it there in the unlikely event the cam should fail to lock.
For chrissake n00bs, if you don't know the answer to a safety-related question, don't guess! Just STFU and let people who know what they are talking about answer. The above response, along with many in this thread, are just plain ignorant. If you don't know what you are talking about, just shut up.
-Jay
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overlord
Jul 23, 2004, 10:17 AM
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heres what i do.
first you need do adopt your right hand as your brake hand.
when passing rope normally, just do it like on any normal belay device, with hands on both parts of the rope.
when you need to do it quickly, let go of the brake end grip the grigri with your right (brake) hand and keep it open with your pinky or ring finger and feed with your left. that way if the leader falls, the grigri will be janked from your hands and will function properly.
NEVER EVER grip the grigri across the top with your left thumb. that way it wont be janked from your hand if the leader falls and it wont engage.
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samuel
Aug 4, 2004, 5:05 PM
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In case this was unknown, the reflex when catching a fall is to pinch tight to whatever you are holding. The same reason for people rapping of the end of the rope even with a prusik knot. It's not easy letting go.
Whether you are pinching the gri-gri on the sides or with the tumb on top, you are just testing your luck. If you are able to yank rope through it, the leader falling will have a chance of falling to the ground unless you are able to stop pinching and let go.
I never used the gri-gri for anything else top-roping because i didnt like giving out rope in the pinch-fashion, and it gave me bad reflexes when going back to the atc.
PAY ATTENTION!
It is possible to use the gri-gri without letting go of the rope with your break hand when giving out slack quickly. Here is how:
Use your right hand as your break-hand, and the left hand to yank out slack. Never let go of the break end.
Let the rope slide back over the right "edge" of the gri-gri, like when lowering.
Hold your right hand level with the gri-gri and extend your right tumb over the back end of the gri-gri (where the cam protrudes), but STILL GRIP THE ROPE WITH YOUR 4 OTHER FINGERS.
When yanking up rope with your left hand, the gri-gri will stop at your right tumb and if you manage to let the rope slide through your right hand it will be even quicker than with an atc.
If the leader falls, you just have to pinch your right fingers slightly in order for the gri-gri to lock off. There is no power in the right tumb since there is no pinch (you dont have any fingers on the underside of the gri-gri)
Even a small tangle on the rope will cause the gri-gri to lock off so keep the rope tidy.
The important thing here is not to grab on the underside of the gri-gri aswell as using the tumb. That way you would be locking it off completely again, and be fighting your instincts when the leader takes a fall.
Try it and you will see. Contact me if any of this is unclear.
Credits for this to Roland Kraska, Professor of alpinism in Stuttgart I believe.
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jt512
Aug 4, 2004, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: In case this was unknown, the reflex when catching a fall is to pinch tight to whatever you are holding. The same reason for people rapping of the end of the rope even with a prusik knot. It's not easy letting go. Whether you are pinching the gri-gri on the sides or with the tumb on top, you are just testing your luck. If you are able to yank rope through it, the leader falling will have a chance of falling to the ground unless you are able to stop pinching and let go.
So, you have to train yourself to let go. In other words, you practice with the grigri until your reflex when catching a fall is to let go of the device and grab the brake side of the rope.
-Jay
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samuel
Aug 4, 2004, 5:25 PM
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I don't believe these reflexes are easily adjusted. If you are scared, you hold tight.
(And if you should succeed in changing your instincts/reflexes, what will happen when you belay with an ATC?)
Maybe I misunderstood your post, but the idea of this method is to never have to let go of the break rope. That way you can switch between different devices without problems, and be more safe than relying on hitting the rope when you move your hand.
Your hand will always be in the right position to catch a fall, and that cant be bad.
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ikefromla
Aug 4, 2004, 5:32 PM
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it seems that in threads such as this one Jay is always taking the words right out of my mouth. so just read all of his replies and consider them mine as well. :roll:
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jt512
Aug 4, 2004, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: I don't believe these reflexes are easily adjusted. If you are scared, you hold tight. (And if you should succeed in changing your instincts/reflexes, what will happen when you belay with an ATC?)
The braking position is similar between the ATC and the grigri. 99% of the time you would do the same thing to lock off the rope with either device; namely, lower your brake hand. The only difference occurs if the leader falls when your brake hand is holding the cam open, and the only time you should be doing that is when you are yarding out rope for your partner to make a clip. When you are doing that you should be paying attention, so you don't get "scared" (I assume you mean "surprised"). The reflex action is still similar to what you'd with an ATC, exept first you have to let go of the grigri.
In reply to: Maybe I misunderstood your post, but the idea of this method is to never have to let go of the break rope. That way you can switch between different devices without problems, and be more safe than relying on hitting the rope when you move your hand.
I understood your post. Your method sounds unwieldy, but I'll try it out.
-Jay
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ikefromla
Aug 4, 2004, 5:38 PM
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:shock:
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petsfed
Aug 4, 2004, 5:42 PM
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Strange but true: the only time I get the gri-gri to unintentionally lock up when belaying is when I'm NOT PAYING ATTENTION. It took me a week of accidentally making my partner blow clips before I got the system wired. Now its no problem. Read the instructions and watch the leader!
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samuel
Aug 4, 2004, 5:48 PM
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If you would care to check out the accident reports, you would notice that there are quite a few accidents occuring when people lock of the gri-gri and give slack.
"Suddenly he was on the deck, I don't know how, it happened so fast"
At 20 feet, you have how much time to react?
If you weren't looking at the leader when he fell and are made aware of the fall by the tension in the rope you will anyway have a problem.
I know that this isn't supposed to happen, but it does a lot.
Try it out, it seems to be catching on.
The guys who came up with this method is doing lots of testing on equipment for different manufacturers (harnesses, bolts, etc) and I am totally hooked by this.
I wouldn't be suprised if it came with the next instruction from Petzl as they give recommendations to the manufacturers.
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jt512
Aug 4, 2004, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: If you would care to check out the accident reports, you would notice that there are quite a few accidents occuring when people lock of the gri-gri and give slack.
I agree that most grigri accidents occur because the belayer clamps down on the cam when the leader falls. Where we differ is that you are blaming the recommended belay method, whereas I am blaming insufficient training in the recommended belay method.
In reply to: If you weren't looking at the leader when he fell and are made aware of the fall by the tension in the rope you will anyway have a problem.
One of the points I tried to make in an earlier post is that when you're holding the cam open you'd better be paying attention to the leader.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 4, 2004, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you would care to check out the accident reports, you would notice that there are quite a few accidents occuring when people lock of the gri-gri and give slack. I agree that most grigri accidents occur because the belayer clamps down on the cam when the leader falls. Where we differ is that you are blaming the recommended belay method, whereas I am blaming insufficient training in the recommended belay method.
Anyone care to provide references to all of these accidents caused by a grigri not locking up in a lead fall? (blown clip or not, and disregard slab falls)
From what I have seen most grigri accidents take place while lowering, then TR'ing, then taking, then hanging, and then maybe on a lead fall.
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samuel
Aug 4, 2004, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: I agree that most grigri accidents occur because the belayer clamps down on the cam when the leader falls. Where we differ is that you are blaming the recommended belay method, whereas I am blaming insufficient training in the recommended belay method. One of the points I tried to make in an earlier post is that when you're holding the cam open you'd better be paying attention to the leader. -Jay
I don't disagree with you on this Jay, and I'm not here to place the blame but if we can create safer and better methods for people to use then why not?
I would say that never letting go of the break hand is a good habit.
Every single person I've showed this to in person agrees that it is a better way to belay, and it makes them feel safer. It's just a bit hard to explain in writing.
Tell me what you think when you try it. I'd be glad to send you a video of it aswell if you are interested.
I spend whole days seeing people looking the other way while they feed rope through a locked gri-gri to a leader, from bottom to top of a climb.
Often, this is so called "experienced" climbers so its harder telling them what to do.
Cheers
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salami
Aug 4, 2004, 7:30 PM
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I only belay with a grigri on sport but never on trad. A grigri is an autolocker so it does not have any rope slip through the device. This means in a fall it will have a higher impact force on the gear which might cause it to pull where an ATC (because of rope slippage) will have lower impact forces. Check it out on http://www.petzl.com/petzl/ProConseils?Langue=en&Conseil=56 Petzls fall simulator. Try various falls with trad gear using a grigri and then an ATC. Compare for yourself.
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samuel
Aug 4, 2004, 8:14 PM
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In reply to: Anyone care to provide references to all of these accidents caused by a grigri not locking up in a lead fall? (blown clip or not, and disregard slab falls) From what I have seen most grigri accidents take place while lowering, then TR'ing, then taking, then hanging, and then maybe on a lead fall.
I can't find any American source for this right now, but from the Norwegian climbing associations webpage http://www.klatring.no/...ult.asp?V_DOC_ID=985 (sorry, Norwegian) from all accidents reported in 2002 I see that:
- There are 5 "gri-gri incidents" reported. (of totally 36 incidents)
- 4 of these happened while giving rope to a leader that fell unexpectedly. (3 went all the way to the deck)
- 1 is a back injury due to high impact force/falling sideways.
I'd like to see more data like this. Anybody have links to similar American (or other) pages?
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jt512
Aug 5, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If you would care to check out the accident reports, you would notice that there are quite a few accidents occuring when people lock of the gri-gri and give slack. I agree that most grigri accidents occur because the belayer clamps down on the cam when the leader falls. Where we differ is that you are blaming the recommended belay method, whereas I am blaming insufficient training in the recommended belay method. Anyone care to provide references to all of these accidents caused by a grigri not locking up in a lead fall? (blown clip or not, and disregard slab falls) From what I have seen most grigri accidents take place while lowering, then TR'ing, then taking, then hanging, and then maybe on a lead fall.
References? I think they're written up annually in Accidents in North American Gym Climbing. I agree with you, though. Now that you mention it, I've seen or heard of a lot accidents with grigris when the leader takes.
-Jay
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