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tsyklon
Jul 27, 2004, 10:12 PM
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Plan to Check it out on August 5th.
I think Pentapitch is used a lot as a Practice/Training for Trad. Lots of Placed bolts for Backup.
My love is Trad, but I am still a big time newb and feel REALLY REALLY Free and more concentrated on the Sport Climb.
Specially on Industrial Wall just to the right side of PentaPitch. That wall on the east side is full of metal. Great Climbing and NICe cool shade most the day.
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rockprodigy
Jul 27, 2004, 10:58 PM
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a lot of wierd stuff goes on in LCC.
I assure you that is not the only bolt near a good clean placement. Often times, those bolts pop up because someone is replacing a pin or some other form of fixed gear. I think those people should consider if the bolt is really necessary, but in many cases, they just put in the bolt.
Then the rest of us just complain about it on the internet, but nobody ever does anything about it. It's not that we're lazy, or that we don't care, it's that there is just too much damn climbing to be done around here...nobody has time to chop. That is where your experience is different from back east. Out there, people are bored, so there is plenty of time for chop, chop. In Yosemite, or JTree, the locals have done all the easy routes 20 times, and they're not good enough to do anything new, so they have time to chop, chop.
If you want to spend your time taking that bolt out, I'm sure many people would appreciate it, then again, it would probably show up again in a few months. Personally I don't have the time to deal with all that.
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atg200
Jul 27, 2004, 11:16 PM
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yeah, it seems like sometimes on the mega popular moderate routes in LCC a bolt will sprout up on a 5.8 in a place where most 5.8 leaders can't place gear well. cranial prophylactic is another example - there is great gear above and below it(like 2 feet above and below it) and gear is possible next to the bolt, but it would be tricky to place and use up a handhold in the crux.
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grayhghost
Jul 28, 2004, 12:11 AM
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I always wondered why that bolt on
Craynial Prophelatic stuck around,
even after the Ruckmans pointed
out in their book that it was not
placed by the first acent party. I
still use it to show people that trad
gear will hold a fall (plug in a cam
next to the bolt, then clip the bolt
as a backup, then jump.) good times.
What about the two bolts for
the 5.9 direct start to Schoolroom?
What is up with those?
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ldsclimber
Jul 28, 2004, 1:51 AM
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I'm not up there yet but will soon be I'm From Az where in most areas bolting is not an Issue. It's cool to see that there are areas such as LCC. that are climbed so often that bolts are noticed when they are not needed. I've done a few of the classics up there and can't wait to do more. I hope to meet you guys on the Rock as you all seem to care a lot about Trad and pureity. Times are changing but it's cool to see that trad is not.
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bsmoot
Jul 28, 2004, 6:02 AM
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Cracklover:
I'm not sure what bolt your talking about, but back in the mid 70's when I first climbed on the Pentapitch I remember there only being 1 bolt on the whole buttress. That bolt wasn't part of the regular route. It was a free variation that branched off left. It's location is now where that obtrusive 3 bolt rap station is located about 70' above the midway ledges.
If there are any new additional bolts in, they probably should be removed. The Pentapitch is a great place for climbers to develop their nutting skills. I've removed a few bolts recently on other climbs to preserve history. Hopefully climbers will be more respectful of it.
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cracklover
Jul 28, 2004, 12:24 PM
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In reply to: Cracklover: I'm not sure what bolt your talking about
Okay, here's a pic. This was taken from the top of the last pitch, looking down at my second. You'll see a red sling attached to the nut, and the bolt is just below and to the left in the frame.
http://www.gunks.com/.../504/677bolt_nut.jpg
GO
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therealdeal
Jul 28, 2004, 2:07 PM
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i could be mistaken...i probably only did that route for the first time ten years ago...but i think that was put in by the first ascent party. it was there whern i first did the route.
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rockprodigy
Jul 28, 2004, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: I hope to meet you guys on the Rock as you all seem to care a lot about Trad and pureity. Times are changing but it's cool to see that trad is not.
Are you reading the same thread? I thought I just made the point that LCC is anything but "pure". You are correct in that many people "care", but few people take action.
In reply to: I've removed a few bolts recently on other climbs to preserve history. Hopefully climbers will be more respectful of it.
What bolts have you removed Brian? I haven't been climbing here long, but I can't think of a single bolt ever being removed.
The cranial prophylactic bolt doesn't bother me too much. It's been there since the guidebook was published, so I figure the "old guard" didn't have a problem with it.
Is(are) the bolt(s) on the second pitch of touch up original? It seems like I don't remember that being there....
If you want to get sick with disgust, check out the bolts on left trinity!
As for the bolt in the photo...it's been a while since I've been up there, but is it possible that bolt is replacing the pin in the 11c variation?
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brianinslc
Jul 28, 2004, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: The cranial prophylactic bolt doesn't bother me too much. It's been there since the guidebook was published, so I figure the "old guard" didn't have a problem with it.
Ditto. Been there a long time. Does kinda protect the moves onto the lower angle business. Very cam-able there, though. Bet its been hung on a bunch (seen folks hang on it a number of times).
In reply to: Is(are) the bolt(s) on the second pitch of touch up original? It seems like I don't remember that being there....
Isn't there a newer route (or routes?) that cut over to Gordon's Hangover that has a couple of bolts?
In reply to: As for the bolt in the photo...it's been a while since I've been up there, but is it possible that bolt is replacing the pin in the 11c variation?
I don't think so. At the top pitch of pentapitch, seems like you can go straight up early and avoid the traverse that the bolt is protecting (as in the above photo...nice!). Its a bit gritty up there. I seem to recall not seeing that bolt in '85, but, sprouted up a few years later maybe (but I'm not sure). I think last time I climbed the route, we clipped that thing, and were happy to. Protects the traverse out right if you decide to go that way (toward Jame's new route and Flashdance).
The new bolts on the "mantle variation" of Schoolroom have managed to not get chopped. I believe that variation was commonly done without them (basically a solo to the right of the first regular pitch of Schoolroom). Did it myself in '85. Of course, when I repeated it a few years ago...I was very happy to clip them...so...ugh. Now I probably wouldn't climb the route if the bolts weren't there (shrinkage? Ha ha).
Wonder why its called the mantle variation? New bolts are at him, and right above him at the traverse on the regular schoolroom route.
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/486.jpg
Anyhoo. Less chopping, more climbing...
Brian in SLC
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rockprodigy
Jul 28, 2004, 6:44 PM
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huh...I guess I need to get up there again.
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bsmoot
Jul 29, 2004, 5:56 AM
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Mike,
The bolts I removed have been on The Final Link (one of my routes) on the Crescent Crack buttress and 2 bolts (a belay) on the Dorsal Fin. These are the bolts at the start of the beautiful upper crack. This was a major rape job since the bolts were placed next to a good crack and it's right in the middle of a cool transition where you move from an amazing dike to a hand and finger crack. If climbers want to belay there there can throw in some cams. The route was originally done in 4 pitches...and still was done that way for many years. The 2nd belay was in the shallow corner, below the dike and the 3rd belay was up high in the upper crack at an original bolt.
There is a bolt low down on Endless Torment that my brother want's to remove. (it may already be gone) Some other routes I can think of that have had bolts removed are: the Coffin, Equipment Overhang Left & Tingey's Terror...I'm sure there are more.
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rockprodigy
Jul 29, 2004, 4:50 PM
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right on.
The biggest rape job in LCC has to be Left Trinity. I had a long discussion about that with another prolific LCC climber. The state it's in now, I don't think you would need any trad gear at all to climb it, and it looks like it has perfect tcu placements most the way up. One of my goals for this fall is to do that route without the bolts, and then return it to a natural state. I think that's the way it should be done...do the route in better style, and then get on the high horse....
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bsmoot
Jul 30, 2004, 3:23 AM
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If Mugs Stump knew that Left Trinity was all bolted to hell he'd be pleading for an early resurrection! In the early days those bolts didn't exist. Some very good climbers failed on that route while trying to climb it without the bolts. I'd certainly support their removal...Bolts next to a good granite crack... Geez! That wouldn't happen in the Valley.
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over_the_hill
Jul 30, 2004, 5:38 AM
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Here is a quote I found earlier on:
"Part of me thinks it neat that new routes are still goin' in. Take the line to the right of Kermit's Wad, fer instance. Bolted on lead last year? Felt like at least 5.11a to me. When I first saw it from Kermits, I thought, whoa, what sackless rap bolter did that. After doin' it, didn't feel so well bolted. And, after an enquiry, I found out it was bolted on lead. Very impressive."
The route to the right of kermits wad is called PUNANY. I am the sackless driller of that route. I was not aware of this discussion, or I would have joined in on this discussion ages ago.
Whether you like the route or not, there are some things you might want to know before passing judgement on it. Here are some of the facts about it:
The route was drilled on lead, and it was done with a hand drill and hammer. Many of the routes on this wall were done in this fashion, so it seemed only fitting that this route MUST go in with the same style.
This route took close to 6 months of time to put in. My calves could only take one bolt at a time, and at least a week to de pump from the drilling. I only wanted to work on it when there was no one else around. Drilling by hand is noisy and annoying.
The first three bolts seem close together. Bolt one was easily drilled from a ledge stance. Bolt 3 was planned to be bolt 2. I fell trying to drill it, and almost decked! Falling over that roof and then back onto the green slab was very nasty, and a lot longer than I wanted anyone to ever fall. Bolt two was then drilled to keep people from ever going over that roof again.
While trying to drill bolt 4, it began to rain. The drill was in about 3/4 of an inch, so I girth hitched it, lowered down to bolt 3, and lowered off. About two hours later, the rock was dry enough to climb kermits, and get my stranded gear.
Bolt 5 has its own story! It was actually added after the FA!! Next time you try it, imagine going from bolt 4 to the last bolt on Kermits...........thats how the FA was done. It seemed stupid to have 4 rather close bolts only to have a 30+ foot runout. Bolt 5 was added to keep the climb safe and enjoyable.
So after all that, you must be asking yourself "who really cares!!!!!" YOUR RIGHT!!! NO ONE CARES! I am a sackless driller, but one who tries to care about the area, and hopefully add something of quality for everyone to enjoy. I am not trying to add my name to any guidebook. I am usually very shy when asked about any of my climbs. (until now I guess)
I did not add any of the bolts or routes mentioned in this thread. Personally, I have no right to pass judgement on anyone. I agree with much of what has been discussed here. LCC deserves our respect. I for one have no right to cast any stones.
PUNANY was a route of great conflict for me. The KERMITS WAD wall is a great climbing area, filled with great history. I wanted to respect that history, and honor those who have climbed before us. I also feel that PUNANY is a a valid line, one that safely challenges all climbers to hone their friction skills with. I have climbed "kermits" for 20 years, and loved each ascent of it. I remember clipping bolt 4 on kermits, looking down at where PUNANY sits and thinking " I wonder if anyone will ever climb this!?!" One of the best days of my life in climbing was reaching the anchors, knowing that somone "could" climb that blank face.
I, am one of your sackless drillers. And, I accept your scourn/ praise for any of my actions. He/ She who is without sin may cast the first stones.
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atg200
Jul 30, 2004, 2:06 PM
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no one called you a sackless driller. seems that the post you quoted ended up praising you in the end after an inital wrong impression. the sackless drillers are the ones adding bolts to existing naturally routes where natural pro is possible. calm down, and good job on your route.
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over_the_hill
Jul 30, 2004, 4:56 PM
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Sorry to give the wrong impression. I wasn't concerned about the possibility of being called a sackless driller (or anything for that matter). In fact, all I was trying to do was to come clean about a route I had put in. Some people may feel that this route is a squeeze play, and they have the right to thier own opinion. Not everyone is going to like the idea of a new route on the Kermits Wad wall. Now those people who are upset about the route can confront me directly, and communicate there opinion with a bit more knowlege of what was going on in regard to putting it in.
I did read that this new route was being praised by rockprodigy and feelio, and I am sure that there are other who are happy the route is in. For those who dislike the route, I am a sackless driller! I accept whatever opinion you may have, and am moving on.
It was nice to read this thread and see that everyone agrees that bolting is a problem that needs to be addressed. I have not climbed pentapitch for a while, but I am very concerned with runaway bolting in that area. People who are doing this should come clean and justify thier actions. Good communication is key to our impact sensitive area. I for one want to be open to that communication, and work to making the canyon a place for all of us to climb in together.
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brianinslc
Jul 30, 2004, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: Sorry to give the wrong impression. I wasn't concerned about the possibility of being called a sackless driller
For those who dislike the route, I am a sackless driller!
Hey, FWIW, its a great route. Kudos to you for puttin' it up on point. And, I got no problem with you addin' the bolt on rappel, either.
Its kinda squeezed, but, not too bad. Sort of natural that there be a route in there between Kermits and Smitty's. Good eye.
And, even if folks don't like the route, I doubt they'd call you sackless for hand drilling it on lead!
Given that you drilled 3/8" bolts, on first blush, it does look power drilled, though. Must have taken a bunch of effort to hand drill even though Wasatch granite isn't super hard to drill into (1/4" though...3/8"...yikes!). Good on ya.
Brian in SLC
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over_the_hill
Jul 30, 2004, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: I got no problem with you addin' the bolt on rappel, either. Brian in SLC
Bolt 5 was placed off of an aid hook, up in the green face and not done on rappel. It was still on lead, just a bit later in the day. I didn't want to tarnish a "drilled on lead" climb with a rap bolt.
I am glad that you enjoyed it, and thanks for giving me your thoughts on it. I really hope to someday see someone on it. I want to take photo's.
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tylerphillips
Aug 17, 2004, 4:24 PM
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In response to Feelio, Lesbian Seagull, next to Endless Torment is not a "squeeze job" it is a independant line that starts on Endless and moves right, the bolts do nothing to detract from the bold lead that is Endless Torment. In fact, lead Lesbian Seagull, and then tell me if you think it is too close, true it starts and ends on Endless, but the climbing 15 feet to the right of Endless is quite exilerating. Just my two cents, though I may be a little bias. On another note, MOST, new routers are just out sniffing for new rock to share with the rest of the commuinty, so get of your soap box and enjoy the new route that probably cost them $40 bucks upward to install.
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tylerphillips
Aug 19, 2004, 3:57 PM
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Back onto the Lesbian Seagull Feelio.OK so maybe it would be a squeeze job in the eyes of some old guard who can't see beyond their own noses. Why should there be new anchors for a new climb if EXSITING anchors are in a acceptable place. Oh maybe we should have drilled anchors to "alliviate congestion", but that's bullshit. Feelio I suspect that you would be perfectly content to repeat the same routes for the next 20 years. With nobody adding any new routes in the sacred LCC. It's climbed out right? All you old tough guys already did all the acceptable lines already, anything eles is a substandard "squeeze job". I personally like to have more than one climb in the area I am climbing, and if there is a fun line there why not? If you can't clip the new "squeeze job" bolts off of the old existing line, is it a "squeeze job"? Now I agree that we don't need to grid out slabs, but if there is a fun line that you old foggies didn't see on a slab that had your testpiece in the 80's on it, can't there be a new testpiece for this generation and future generation's.
PS "testpiece is a relative term", one person's testpiece could be 5.5+, while anothers is 5.15, so don't start a lame tirade about "testpieces'". It is a relative term.
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