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skibabeage
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Aug 11, 2004, 11:19 PM
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hexitup
Aug 13, 2004, 4:08 AM
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I give serious respect to Mr. Barlage and Mr. Bibler. That's an awfully nice stance to take towards someone who is essentially being an asshole to you. My personal opinion towards people passing me is that anyone who is moving much faster at all can pass. It's just cool to watch a really efficient team work, and you might pick up a few techniques from them. I've never heard of this trade of a pass for a haul. Maybe PTPP could give up his "Better Way" of 2:1 hauling for hopping on popular push routes and letting blazing fast parties do his hauling for him.
Conclusion: Big walls in a push are cool. Ammon is so dreamy.
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flamer
Aug 13, 2004, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: "WE ARE PASSING YOU."
Yup.
josh
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mesomorf
Aug 13, 2004, 1:58 PM
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The report is lacking detail, but it sounds like they could have passed using the Jardine Traverse. Maybe we're not getting the whole story.
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overlord
Aug 13, 2004, 2:47 PM
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kudos for the speedy team for their courtesy despite the slow team being real pricks. too bad they had to bail.
at least it was good karma.
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boltdude
Aug 13, 2004, 3:10 PM
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Kind of ironic coming from a couple of guys in the climbing gear industry, who market climbing left and right and then complain when their marketing works too well?
These situations are tough, sometimes there are strategies for avoiding crowds, but often you just have to get lucky (or be persistent). Regular Route on Fairview Dome is a good example - most people have to try at least a few times (and get turned back by crowds) before they get lucky and find a good day without a really slow party in the way.
At least we don't have the situations common in some places in Europe, where just climbing over people, grabbing and clipping their gear, and being major jerks is common.
Anyway, I have friends who've run into the same situation as these guys, but with no big name and no industry contacts, there's no article relayed by a gear company (didn't appear to be any articles on that website, where was it originally published?). The cynical side of me would ask them if the Nose has ever appeared in a Bibler catalog or a Black Diamond marketing campaign. The even more cynical side of me has to wonder if they were paid anything for the article wherever it first appeared...
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joelcshanight
Aug 13, 2004, 5:57 PM
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Tough SH**, people have broken legs and cannot walk at all for any # of reasons---and you are crying about traffic---everyone is responsible for themselves.
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pmyche
Aug 13, 2004, 8:46 PM
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As always, karlbaba has some balanced insight and I agree with what he wrote.
You're living on faith when you expect every single person on the most popular rock climb in the world to make an impromptu sacrafice on your behalf on a dime. If you head to the one-lane autobahn to put your Ferrari thru its paces and get shut down (albeit, by some not-so-considerate person), who's fault is it? If they had started at 9pm instead of 4am, they would have sailed through, though probably in a bit more time and with less spectacular vistas. What happened to them is the occupational hazard of the minority. The workarounds are simple: Climb at night. Climb in the off season. Climb a route that isn't Earth's most popular in Earth's most notorious climbing destination. At the risk of being a mouth, I wonder what those monsters are doing on something as pedestrian as NIAD...I'd think they'd be doing something commensurate of their outstanding abilities (read: ground-breaking). Maybe it was a casual day...
If you're hauling or otherwise going at a leisurely pace and not in impending danger, letting the speedsters pass is good form. I still respect those who exercise their right to not allow passing, and have myself bailed to avert a log jam. Cheers, all.
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texplorer
Aug 13, 2004, 11:45 PM
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This kind of behavior infuriates me. A year ago I did the nose in a day and it was a great experience. We passed 4-5 parties in the stovelegs and a few more around the boot. Everyone was really supportive and even let me use their rope to lower out from the boot. It is still one my greatest climbing achievements and overall experiences.
My advice is to choose times when the route is free of people or at least relatively traffic free. Just a few months ago not a sole was on the Nose for a week.
As far as not letting people pass- well that is really stupid. If people can go 14 pitches in under 5 hours they will be out of your way in less than 30 minutes most likely. The second can even simul-aid up 30 feet or so and be out of the way of the belay faster. If those bastards told me I couldn't pass I would do it anyway or wait until they were one pitch from the top and give them a pissers welcome and a good piece of my mind.
I am not usually a militant climber but when people start acting arrogant and unreasonable I get angry. Granted there are situations where letting someone pass is not wise, convenient or even logical and in those situations different action must be taken. I guess what I am saying is just be cool and chill out.
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fuzzybrandon
Aug 14, 2004, 12:14 AM
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How about waiting til there aren't 20 frigging people to pass on the route. I've been in the valley twice this year and both times there were days when there were ZERO parties on the Nose. OK, so maybe they only had one day. There are tons of big routes to smoke in a day. And those of you who advocate just passing anyway, are you nuts? Dicks who won't let you pass are the kind of folks who tie your rope off to a piece or other nutso tricks.
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karlbaba
Aug 14, 2004, 6:12 AM
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In reply to: Snip- If those bastards told me I couldn't pass I would do it anyway or wait until they were one pitch from the top and give them a pissers welcome and a good piece of my mind. I am not usually a militant climber but when people start acting arrogant and unreasonable I get angry. Granted there are situations where letting someone pass is not wise, convenient or even logical and in those situations different action must be taken. I guess what I am saying is just be cool and chill out.
I agree that arrogance and being unreasonable are miserable qualities. Hopefully nobody will stretch your patience so far that you'll be tempted to sink to their level
Peace
karl
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tgreene
Aug 16, 2004, 2:45 PM
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When possible, the rules should be the same as with golf or xc-skiing, where a slower party should always yield to a faster one... :wink:
As a xc-ski marathon racer, nothiong pissed me off more than yelling "TRACK", and the person in front not yielding to me (or another skiier) than was quickly approaching from behind. While this didn't happen a lot, it seemed to be concentrated to smaller local 5-10k races and in the larger marathons after a checkpoint. because of the size and appeal, the Birkebiner was a nightmare in such situations! :evil:
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flamer
Aug 16, 2004, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: Atsa by boy! (flamer) Hon, all they need to do is take one look at you and know that messing with you is probably not in their best interests....... :wink:
Although, I know that you are complimenting me- I don't want to be that guy.
I don't want the state of climbing affair's to drop to this level.
I don't want to intimidate anyone!! I don't want to have to be a jerk!!
Generally you'll only see me be a jerk when someone else is being one to me or others.
When I pass people I'm almost always super gracious, and respectful, and I thank them profusely!! When we did Olive oil we drank beers with alot of the people we passed later that night(at the Red Rock Rendevous) and had a great time!! They were really cool folks!!! The obvious exception was the folks who were being jerks- and nobody wanted to see them again!!
josh
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ricardol
Aug 16, 2004, 8:26 PM
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.. having had helped people pass, i think that its just good karma .. and maybe that favor will be repayed when i am faster and need to pass other people ..
... in fact the only time i've ran into karl in the valley was when i helped him and his 2 other partners pass me and my partner on middle cathedral ..
.. on a big wall, the logistics are far more complicated on a pass .. so i figured that anyone who is fast enough to pass, is also experienced enough to do it without disrupting my snail pace ..
the advice i got from what i consider a very experienced climber on big wall passes was (and no, this piece of advice did not come from pete) ..
"You dont need to do anything to facilitate a pass on a big wall .. if they are faster than you, then they will figure out a way to pass you without you doing anything .. " .. of course remember that i am slow as molasses .. (2 pitches a day) ..
-- ricardo
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slabbyd
Aug 19, 2004, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: Last March my partner and I (who is another member of this site) were attempting to set the CTC speed record for Olive Oil in Red Rocks.
Wow! Climbing over other folks heads so you can set the "CTC speed record" for a incredibly-popular easy multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Get over yourself.
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chrismcnamara
Aug 22, 2004, 3:05 PM
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There are sooo many routes with no crowds. And if you show up in Yosemite, and are flexible, then you can get on one at almost anytime of the year. Of course, there are certain routes like The Nose that usually have crowds. For these climbs, I think it should be common courtesy that you don't attempt the route until you are a pretty efficient climber. Get the skills dialed on the practice climbs. Do a bunch of grade V walls. If people erred on the side of being over-trained for a route like the Nose, then most parties would take two bivies or less. There would be much less bailing from below Dolt Tower. Currently, people err on the side of getting on the nose as soon as they think they can. It's true, the route is technicaly not that hard (5.8 C1) but it is so friggn huge that unless you have the basic big walls skills dialed, you are going to be fighting logistics your whole way up the climbs, slowing down other people, and not having as much fun as you should on such a cool route.
In general, more climbers do not do nearly enough aid practice before getting on walls. i spend a lot of time aiding in my backyard tree then did tons of one pitch climbs before getting a big wall. Here is a discussion of practice aid climbs in the valley: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=25887
As far as passing, I have yet to be in a situation where a combination of courtesy and demonstrating that you are moving fast did not make a slower team let me pass. But, if someone really did not want me to pass, for some reason, then i would respect that. I don't want to cut into someone elses experience on the wall.
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mreardon
Aug 22, 2004, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: I have yet to be in a situation where a combination of courtesy and demonstrating that you are moving fast did not make a slower team let me pass. But, if someone really did not want me to pass, for some reason, then i would respect that. I don't want to cut into someone elses experience on the wall.
It's nice to see there there are others out there with a sense of courtesy :D
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brutusofwyde
Aug 23, 2004, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: This kind of behavior infuriates me. [snip] If those bastards told me I couldn't pass I would do it anyway or wait until they were one pitch from the top and give them a pissers welcome and a good piece of my mind. I am not usually a militant climber but when people start acting arrogant and unreasonable I get angry.
You seem pretty arrogant and unreasonable yourself. If someone tries to climb over me, without my permission, they will somehow find their rope inexplicably fixed into fixed pieces.
Seems most everyone I meet on walls always thinks they're faster than everyone else.
I've allowed one too many "we're way faster" parties pass, only to be held up by them (for anywheres from several hours to several days) due to their slowness and incompetence.
Don't expect everyone to jump aside just so you can cut another 20 minutes off your car-to-car time.
But these days, I tend to stay as far as possible from crowded routes like the Nose, for the very reason of the crowds and the conflicts they engender.
Brutus, "does not play well with others"
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rockprodigy
Aug 23, 2004, 3:05 PM
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In reply to: Barlage has climbed most crags in the West, and has racked up global adventures, too, even kite-skiing Baffin Island with Andrew McLean. Besides re-defining the term wall-tent, Bibler was one of the first climbers to do a 5.13.
Does anyone else think this is funny?
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flamer
Aug 23, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Last March my partner and I (who is another member of this site) were attempting to set the CTC speed record for Olive Oil in Red Rocks. Wow! Climbing over other folks heads so you can set the "CTC speed record" for a incredibly-popular easy multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks. :roll: :roll: :roll: Get over yourself.
Blow me.
josh
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timstich
Aug 23, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Last March my partner and I (who is another member of this site) were attempting to set the CTC speed record for Olive Oil in Red Rocks. Wow! Climbing over other folks heads so you can set the "CTC speed record" for a incredibly-popular easy multi-pitch climb in Red Rocks. :roll: :roll: :roll: Get over yourself. Blow me. josh
Did someone page Heywood Jablowme?
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pmyche
Aug 23, 2004, 9:24 PM
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As usual, cmac is a voice of diplomacy...
Someone targets a moderate and popular free climb to break a speed record on, sleeps in, arrives late, cuts the multi-party queue - against wishes of some, yaps at or about other climbers as though they're doing something wrong. Josh, you claim that you "don't want the state of climbing affair's [sic] to drop to this level", but your actions and attitude speak differently. It actually is never necessary to be a jerk on the rock. If you had simply gotten after it a bit earlier, everyone involved would have had a better time. You might have even shaved a few more minutes off your time.
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burp
Aug 23, 2004, 10:15 PM
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Howdy,
Being considerate is always helpful. The party may be slower, but they were there first.
Should I be the "slow" (a relative term isn't it?) party ... I think I would have the right to decide whether
In reply to: Snip -- ... there are situations where letting someone pass is not wise, convenient or even logical ... .
Without yielding to and addressing the "slow" party's concerns ... it IS arrogant, inconsiderate and irresponsible of the FASTer party to go ahead and expect to pass regardless of the circumstances. Being fast does not allow anyone the right to compromise the judgment and safety of others. Of course ... offering compensation in the form of hauling, fixing lines, etc. could potentially even things out and help sway the judgement the other way.
BTW, will there come a day when I won't be allowed to jump on the Nose (haven't done the Nose yet) unless I'm considered "fast"? Would planning on 3 days be fast enough? I imagine it's all relative! I imagine any 1 day ascent of the Nose would be considered fast. Wouldn't it? Anything over 1 day would thus be considered not fast (actually normal in this case). I can just see it coming ... everyone on this site snubbing their noses at anyone and everyone that plans on taking longer than 1 day on the nose, then passing judgement and saying they don't belong there, don't have enough experience, or are noobies. This would be ridiculous and more than likely unfounded.
So much for my rambling ... :wink:
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flamer
Aug 23, 2004, 11:19 PM
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In reply to: As usual, cmac is a voice of diplomacy... Someone targets a moderate and popular free climb to break a speed record on, sleeps in, arrives late, cuts the multi-party queue - against wishes of some, yaps at or about other climbers as though they're doing something wrong. Josh, you claim that you "don't want the state of climbing affair's [sic] to drop to this level", but your actions and attitude speak differently. It actually is never necessary to be a jerk on the rock. If you had simply gotten after it a bit earlier, everyone involved would have had a better time. You might have even shaved a few more minutes off your time.
Here is the thing.
We were not in anyones way, and if fact I knew that passing on this route would not put us in anyone's way. NONE of tghe parties on that route that day were slowed up AT ALL when we passed. NONE of them had to stop what they were doing or not climb or anything. When I was referring to "the state of climbing affairs" I was talking about that 2 people who were treating everyone else like $hit.
Had we gotten to the base and someone said "we're not letting you go in front of us" we would have been disappointed but we would have found something else to do.
When we climbed around the party up high after they told us not to pass, it was more an F-you for treating the other people(who were EXTREMLY COOL to us) like $hit.
We fully expected people to be there and we knew we could pass them without getting in their way(which is not *usually* possible on walls and harder climbs).
I completely agree that diplomacy is the best way to go...and I don't usually pass in this fashion. But my opinion is if someone is being a jerk, screw'em.
josh
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ricardol
Aug 23, 2004, 11:48 PM
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i dont think its an issue of wether you could pass easily, safely, or without inconveniencing another party ..
.. i think people were trying to point out that if you guys had just gotten up earlier, you would not have had to pass anyone, or deal with anyone else's attitude's towards passing.. (wether they were jerks or not, is not important)
-- ricardo
In reply to: In reply to: As usual, cmac is a voice of diplomacy... Someone targets a moderate and popular free climb to break a speed record on, sleeps in, arrives late, cuts the multi-party queue - against wishes of some, yaps at or about other climbers as though they're doing something wrong. Josh, you claim that you "don't want the state of climbing affair's [sic] to drop to this level", but your actions and attitude speak differently. It actually is never necessary to be a jerk on the rock. If you had simply gotten after it a bit earlier, everyone involved would have had a better time. You might have even shaved a few more minutes off your time. Here is the thing. We were not in anyones way, and if fact I knew that passing on this route would not put us in anyone's way. NONE of tghe parties on that route that day were slowed up AT ALL when we passed. NONE of them had to stop what they were doing or not climb or anything. When I was referring to "the state of climbing affairs" I was talking about that 2 people who were treating everyone else like $hit. Had we gotten to the base and someone said "we're not letting you go in front of us" we would have been disappointed but we would have found something else to do. When we climbed around the party up high after they told us not to pass, it was more an F-you for treating the other people(who were EXTREMLY COOL to us) like $hit. We fully expected people to be there and we knew we could pass them without getting in their way(which is not *usually* possible on walls and harder climbs). I completely agree that diplomacy is the best way to go...and I don't usually pass in this fashion. But my opinion is if someone is being a jerk, screw'em. josh |
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