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dxmetal
Sep 10, 2004, 6:43 PM
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I heard the old 3 layer system is dead ??
Here are some configuration that I heard people do nowadays
a) base layer undies, Soft shell windstopper, thin water proof shell (eg, marmot precip)
b) base layer undies, fleece, Soft shell windstopper, thin waterproof outer shell
c) base layer undies, 100 fleece, Big Insulation (down or syntetic), thin waterproof outer shell
d) base layer undies, 100 fleece, windstopper thin shell, waterproof outer shell
What happens to the classic base layer undies, fleece, 3 ply classic Gore Tex Hard shell ?? what was wrong/flaws with it ?
How do you wear your layers ??
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mlog
Sep 10, 2004, 6:50 PM
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here is what I take with me while I climb in Sierra during summer months:
- Base layer (underwear)
- Black Diamond long sleeve shirt (very breatheable and absorbs sweat)
- TNF fleece
- Patagonia Dragonfly full-zip jacket (wind-stopper/water repellent, weights 4oz.)
- Either Prana knickers (for hotter days) or BD Rockbottoms (for colder days)
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: I heard the old 3 layer system is dead ?? What happens to the classic base layer undies, fleece, 3 ply classic Gore Tex Hard shell ?? what was wrong/flaws with it ? How do you wear your layers ??
One on top of the other but that's not important right now!
There aren't any rules. Your old school method is just fine.
Mostly its about convicing you to buy new clothes. Are the new clothes better? Undoubtedly, they are. Do you need them? Hellno!
My rule of thumb for new clothing technology is simple: I won't buy it till it starts showing up as closeouts and 2nds. Otherwise, you're paying for a first run premium. Scholler fabric is an excellent example. Good stuff and I've wanted some stretch pants since I first sw them. The same pants I bought at REI for 55 bucks originally sold for 150. I obviously didn't die of exposure while waiting for the price to come down.
Layering particulars are mostly hype. The main message folks like Twight seem to be saying is, whatever layering you do, make sure it is thin, to keep from overheating and getting wet. Throw on the over garmets at the belay.
I do not make a habit of climbing in sub zero weather, being a Californian and all, so please, take this with a grain of northern salt.
Cheers
DMT
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maculated
Sep 10, 2004, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: Mostly its about convicing you to buy new clothes. Are the new clothes better? Undoubtedly, they are. Do you need them? Hellno!
Word dingus, word. I have almost no true tech wear except for shells and I've been just fine ice climbing, skiing, and snowshoeing in the Sierra for years.
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johnson6102002
Sep 10, 2004, 7:36 PM
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do what ever works for you make sure its breathable and water proof and you will be fine. obviously the more expensive stuff is going to be better and lighter but there are deffinitly substitutes for them!
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pico23
Sep 10, 2004, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: I heard the old 3 layer system is dead ?? Here are some configuration that I heard people do nowadays What happens to the classic base layer undies, fleece, 3 ply classic Gore Tex Hard shell ?? what was wrong/flaws with it ? How do you wear your layers ??
I still use a the "old" system (sort of). Much of the demise of the "old" system was marketing. Think about it, you have people that have been climbing for 20 years and have all the gear they need. Now you tell them that the goretex they've been using is all but antiquated except in rare circumstances and that softshells are going to improve there climbing layering systems. You've just sold a lot more clothing in a otherwise saturated market. I almost bought into it myself. Sure schoeller fabrics are great but I almost forgot that even on those -15F days as soon as the sun hits the ice you get wet thus making G-tex and hardshells all the more appealing to me. I've got schoeller pants and they work great on early season days on the ice before there is a ton of snow to slog through. Once it gets wet schoeller loses a lot of the advantages it was designed for. i'd better it's much better to use out west in the drier mountain climates. In the east it's just OK.
I like your A) marmot precip vs. 3 layer goretex or similar? The pricip is great for ultralight one day adventures, backpacking or just incase but it wouldn't hold up to real climbing and it doesn't breathe any better than goretex XCR or similar? Even in the best case it only last a few years before the laminate starts to peel. Your shell is your biggest protection from the elements and I don't particularly trust ultra thin precip. my wife has had one for 4 years. It's been great for everything but the laminate only made it about 2 years.
B) way too much clothing. Windstopper breathes like crap so I'd be hesitant to throw it under a waterproof shell. you'll be overheated in no time with that system
c)again way too warm. i'd save the big insulation (belay jacket) for the belays. definitely carry a belay jacket that you can put on over your shell on multipitch climbs in the winter.
d)again your losing so much breathability that you are going to wetout from the inside. regardless of how you get wet, it's still going to reduce your ability to stay warm. the key to staying warm is staying dry and adding layers when you need them.
Anyway my general system is based on NOT overheating. Better to be initially cold than to build up a sweat and end up bonking and getting cold. If the weather is good i generally wear nothing but 1-2 powerdry tops with a half chest zipper that is usually wide open (exposing my manly hairy chest), polypro bottoms and goretex bib on the approach. If I'm cold I might add a hat which is easier to remove on the fly than a other layers.
When i climb i'll usually throw on the hard shell if we're in the sun if we are not and it's above 25 I usually just climb in my powerdry tops. The whole goal is to stay cool and dry.
I pretty much never use any insulation on my lower body. just poly pro and a WBable shell. But i've climbed with people that wear fleece bottoms all the time. I've generally found that if I keep my head and core warm my legs and feet are just fine.
One of the most under rated layers is the hat. I usually can regulate my temp pretty well by adding or removing a hat. Nice and quick and it fits in my pocket. If you start removing core layers or leg layers you need to stop to remove and stow them. Your partners will get pissed and you'll end up just leaving them on causing you to overheat and then getting miserably cold because your clothing is wet.
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dingus
Sep 10, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: I still use a the "old" system (sort of).
Great advice Pico.
DMT
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mickymac1
Sep 10, 2004, 8:01 PM
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Buy her drinks! :shock:
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agrauch
Sep 10, 2004, 9:56 PM
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In theory, the "old" system is fairly sound, a base layer to wick moisture, an insulating layer to keep you warm, and a shell to keep the wind and precipitation out. The only problem with it in practice is that fleece is too bloody warm and Gore Tex doesn't breath. The end result is that you get soaked with sweat and then you get cold. Really cold.
I still use the "old" system too, sort of. Like Pico, I'm all about not getting too warm. I've found that for most cold weather climbing and skiing situations, at least here in wonderful Wyoming, I wear a polypro shirt, a lightly insulated windshirt, and a shell of some sort, usually Schoeller. If I'm going up hill or its over 30 degrees, the shell stays is my pack. The windshirt is key since it can function as both insulation and shell. I generally carry a puffy jacket for the inevitable stops.
I've also found that I like a little more insulation on my legs. I've found that if my legs are warmer, the rest of me is warmer too and I don't have to wear as much core insulation. I usually wear light wieght fleece and easily vented shells.
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gds
Sep 10, 2004, 10:16 PM
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In reply to: here is what I take with me while I climb in Sierra during summer months: - Base layer (underwear) - Black Diamond long sleeve shirt (very breatheable and absorbs sweat) - TNF fleece - Patagonia Dragonfly full-zip jacket (wind-stopper/water repellent, weights 4oz.) - Either Prana knickers (for hotter days) or BD Rockbottoms (for colder days)
Are the specific brands critical to the success of your system?
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c-money
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Sep 10, 2004, 10:29 PM
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I still use the old 3-layer system somewhat as well. However, I rarely use more than 2-layers for my lower body and I often just use two on top as well.
I have a Mountain Harwear Transition base layer top that I wear under a wind-stopper fleece (warmer) or schoeller Jacket (more breathable) depending on the temps or activity. This is often more then warm enough and I don't find that I overheat (mind you I live through winters in Canada). If conditions are cold but wet, I add on a 3-ply shell (I hate pre-cip for any activity - it is nowhere near as breathable as classic gore-tex or other 2-layer laminates, IMO). Windshirts are a good call: I love windstopper layers - no more draughts get through when you lift your arms - I love em.
Bottoms: I wear just poly-pro or power-stretch bottoms under schoeller or 3-ply gore shell pants. I do not find that my legs really ever get too cold.
Do you need the latest tech-layers? Like others have said, no you don't. As a teen, I used to ski a lot of winters in the Rockies near Jasper in -40 celsius. I would protect myself layering with multiple long-sleeve cotton t-shirts, a sweatshirt, all under a wind-breaker. I didn't freeze anything off and am still alive...
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sa
Sep 10, 2004, 10:40 PM
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Wait a minute. You guys wear your undies on the INside? I think I've found the flaw in my system. :?
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sspssp
Sep 10, 2004, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: B) way too much clothing. Windstopper breathes like crap so I'd be hesitant to throw it under a waterproof shell. you'll be overheated in no time with that system One of the most under rated layers is the hat.
B does sound like too much. However, I'm totally sold on windproof layers with plenty of zip vents. If my middle and outer layers both have underarm zips, I can do pretty well on the not overheating/getting wet from the inside and it sure is nice to zip them up and be totally (not mostly) windproof at the belays.
I like windproof pants with side zips, but it is hard to find them (except for very heavy pants that are for colder weather than I climb in).
I'm amazed at how many people don't carry/wear a hat. Even for a day of cold cragging I will see people dragging around heavy down jackets but they can't be bothered to wear a hat. On a good weather multi-pitch, the first item of warm clothing I'll bring is a hat.
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punk
Sep 11, 2004, 1:49 AM
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Layering is Personal and you have to dial it according to your comfort and weather
On most of the time I wear
Patagonia lightweight zip top and boxers
TNF, OR, Cloudveil Scholler or like fabrics pants
If it is cold, I will ware the 100-weight TNF fleece vest
On top, I ware the EMS (woman’s) Scholler jacket or EMS Wind shirt
Then I throw in the pack my Patagonia pullover puffball and/or the Arc’teryx Fission Belay Parka (this can be used as shell too-- made from GTX) or the Cloudveil Snaz (un-insulated waterproof/breathable shell)
Sometimes I just use the TNF nylon windbreaker with hood that I got for $25 as a shell in a drizzle it works all what I have not even one garment was over $80 just buy them on sale or Ebay
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euroford
Sep 11, 2004, 2:20 AM
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i guess i still go with the 'old' three layer system.
all MH stuff.
wicked t, long sleeve or short, or both depending
ozone fleece
exposure 2 jacket.
matching stuff for the bottom half.
works like a charm, i wouldn't think of changing it. sometimes i get too warm, but the pit/pocket zips on the jacket/fleece work well to vent off the extra.
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pico23
Sep 11, 2004, 2:28 AM
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In reply to: -40 celsius.
which coincidentally is also -40F for those challenged americans reading your post
-40C=-40F=pretty damn cold
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korporal
Sep 11, 2004, 3:46 AM
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I don't do any alpine stuff but I do ski every other day in the winter. I wear whatever is good for that day. Sometimes it is base, thin fleece, unlined gore-texy shell. Others it is base, two thin fleeces, and a lined gore-texy shell. I just adjust it to what the weather is like on the particular day.
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feanor007
Sep 11, 2004, 6:29 AM
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ive found that my REI Muir Woods vest is the most usefull item of clothing i own, barly edging out my Mistral Jacket. The vest insulates my core and leave my arms free. also i've come up with a decent layeing system pretty cheap.
Base: Dufuld undies ($17) and/or Nike Dri-fit tights ($30) and Nike Dri-Fit longsleeve shirt ($30) or Dufold Tee-Shirt and Patigonia Capline Socks ($11), two pairs if it's really cold
Insulation: REI Muir Woods Vest, Polartec 200? ($30) or REI Mistral Jacket, Schroller Dryskin, '03 ($70)
Shell: Marmot Precip '03 ($99)
Pants: Arc'Teryx Switchback Pants ($99)
Hat: Melanzana Polartec 200 Scrap Cap ($12)
Melanzana is an indie outdoor clothing manufactuar based in Leadville, Co that makes really great stuff out of Polartec cloth, but for a heck less than the big boys
my set up isn't for extream conditions, but with the gear i've got I'm ready for nearly anything mother nature can toss at me, but for extreme winter climbing it would need some tweeking. also as an recovoering XC runner, i detest overheating and i'm used to running miles half naked in freeazing rain
also, has any one used cabela's polartec gear. they have got some stuff that looks good. especilly the EWCAS(?) system and a couple hardface fleece items. i just know they are polartec and alot cheaper than most of the name brands
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rongoodman
Sep 13, 2004, 12:28 PM
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One problem with the older layering system is that is was relatively stiff and heavy. The newer soft shells are much more flexible and comfortable. Another problem is that by having all the insulation on the inside, adjusting for varying temps is more complicated, as you have to remove your shell to adjust the insulation.
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paulraphael
Sep 13, 2004, 5:04 PM
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Some perspective ...
The "old system" isn't that old, the "new system" isn't at all new, and they aren't as different from each other as you might think.
The old system came about in the 80s when waterproof/breathable fabrics became viable. The idea was for your clothing to be completely weatherproof, but to still breath adequately. It worked, imperfectly (and nothing will ever be perfect), and got a lot of people up and down a lot of mountains.
People started questioning its efficiency, though. There was the wasted time of getting layers on and off underneath a shell. And there was the growing sense that we spent more time wet from sweat than wet from weather.
The new system slowly evolved, which marketers called "soft shell," but which was really just a return to how things have been done for over a hundred years, only with newer, more efficient, more expensive materials.
There are two basic ideas in the new system (or the very old system, depending on how you want to think about it): one is that in general, breathability is more important than absolute waterproofness. this idea comes with the bonus of letting you wear lighter, more compact, thinner shells (like the various microfibers or dwr treated nylons and polyesters) or to combine insulation and shell into a single fabric (like schoeller fabrics. or in the old days, tightly woven wool).
The other idea is that you don't need a dozen different levels of insulation. Most of the time you need two: light and heavy. Light for climbing, heavy for not climbing. So you get a big dumb warm jacket, and layer it over your light clothes when you're belaying or resting. Nothing to remove first, no need to untie, etc. etc..
Again, smart guys have been doing some variation on this since before forever.
If you read any of Paul Petzolt's instructions for dressing for the mountains (written for NOLS back in the 60s, before there was such thing as climbing clothes in this country) you see all the basics of the softshell approach, but applied mostly with woolens from the army surplus store. They travelled heavy, and looked like dorks, but they stayed comfortable.
Dressing more efficiently doesn't have to mean buying a new wardrobe. It just means rethinking things, finding new ways to use your old clothes, figuring out which ones to leave behind (the best part), and then maybe buying one or two new things when you figure out exactly what you want.
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pico23
Sep 14, 2004, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: Some perspective ... The "old system" isn't that old, the "new system" isn't at all new, and they aren't as different from each other as you might think. The other idea is that you don't need a dozen different levels of insulation. Most of the time you need two: light and heavy. Light for climbing, heavy for not climbing. So you get a big dumb warm jacket, and layer it over your light clothes when you're belaying or resting. Nothing to remove first, no need to untie, etc. etc.. Dressing more efficiently doesn't have to mean buying a new wardrobe. It just means rethinking things, finding new ways to use your old clothes, figuring out which ones to leave behind (the best part), and then maybe buying one or two new things when you figure out exactly what you want.
The old system works better if you concede that during movement staying cool is harder than staying warm in all but the most extreme circumstances. On the other hand the new system sort of takes that into account by default. I can only think of a few times I couldn't stay warm while moving and both times the windchill was greater than -60F with the air temp near 0F. Don't over layer at the beggining, you can always add more if don't warm up in the first 10-20 minutes. Limit layers under the hardshell to essentially wicking layers that dry easily. Carry a light insulating layer for under the shell (while moving) if it's brutal and a big insulation belay jacket that in most circumstances goes over the hardshell.
In the dry high altitude mountains the hardshell might be less efficient but in the wetter, more humid, eastern US a hardshell is more useful because once you get wet your gear generally remains wet. so keeping dry in the first place is key. those nylon hardshells (even when they wetout) absorb less water than a schoeller softshell so they will sap less of your heat. the problem is goretex breathes fine until you start getting really active and then it can't keep up so you are prone to getting wet from the inside out. the soft shells do a lot better job of regulating with out your input. When I've been out west in the mountains I was able to dry my gear out regularly. In the east it either drys through body heat or it freezes.
if you keep your layers thin they have a better chance of drying out and staying warm.
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slobmonster
Sep 18, 2004, 6:05 AM
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In reply to: I wear whatever is good for that day.
Having just moved to the wets coast, I know I'll have to get used to the drier climate in the mountains around here. But back in NH, I tended to carry enough to see me through, and little else. To be honest, I *really* like the 'new' softshell stuff, as it's less noisy, less stiff, and way more breathable than the more traditional layers-under-a-shell technique. What worked for me, in a humid, cold climate: long johns, top & bottoms; Schoeller pants, w/ shell pants in the pack if it was wicked pissah cold; a fleece layer up top; Schoeller jacket; thin-ish insulated hooded coat to go on top. I usually had a husky belay parka in the pack. In several years of winter travel I have never brought a truly waterproof shell.
That said, if I'm in the mountains out here, and it gets cold but not too cold to rain, I'll bring a shell. And a hat. And some lacy undergarments to make me feel sexy enough to bag the route.
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paulraphael
Sep 21, 2004, 8:22 PM
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doesn't patagonia make a slinky, lacy version of capilene? you could be in luck.
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highangle
Sep 22, 2004, 3:51 AM
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I think it was Petzold who said "I don't care if you have to unzip your fly, don't overheat!" The biggest problem I have found with the 3 layer is definately overheating. For me anticipating what I am going to be doing/feeling 15 minutes from now helps me plan what I have on, instead of waiting for the layers to "tell" me they are not right.
Out here in Idaho, it's dry enough that I only wear a shell on top when it is comin' down, or when stopped. My Patagonia shell (can't remember model) has pit zips that go from my elbow to the bottom of my ribs- lots of ventilation. Plus it unzips from the bottom up (amazing how many don't)
Layer 1: Patagonia midweight stretch capilene (zip-t top/bottom)
Layer 2: Fleecy vest-windstopper, shell pants (long sleeve fleece if overcast/cooler)
I switch a lot between a baseball cap (going uphill) and a windstopper fleece lid (going downhill/resting)
In the pack, down parka, outer shell. As soon as I stop for an extended period, out comes the shell. If its cold, down, then shell.
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