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blueeyedclimber
Oct 18, 2004, 1:28 PM
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I went trad climbing yesterday at one of the better areas here in Massachusetts and it was pretty crowded. There were a handful of routes I wanted to get on but were all being monopolized by a large group who had set up topropes on all of them. They were pretty nice so I just moved on to find something else and figured I would come back. After doing an easier route, I went to check back and they said they had three more people to climb it. Frustrated, I started to set up on something harder than I have done before, but felt confident that I could do it. As I was flaking out the rope, 2 young girls said that their friends were setting up a tr on the same route. I was a little frustrated, so I gave them kind of an attitude, I apologize for that. Not having any leads available, I toproped some harder routes with some friends right next to them. Then my wife mentions that one of the kids belaying was taking his brake hand off. I watch him for a few seconds, and yes he was, everytime he took in slack. I quickly went over and told him and his friend as discreetly as possible (as not to embarrass him in front of the girls that they were trying to impress). He seemed put off by it, but I didn't care. The girl he was belaying was obviously new (much like himself), and probably wouldn't have appreciated being dropped.
Now, I know this is probably more common than it should be, but isn't this the first lesson you learn - DO NOT take your brake hand off the rope. There seemed to be one with a little bit more experience then the rest, but should you be teaching anyone if you can't spot that. I hope I changed his behavior whether he liked it or not. On top of things, he was harassing her while she was climbing, getting on her about hanging. Luckily I said something before she fell. Whoever you are, climbing is a dangerous sport. If you don't have good habits, sooner or later you will be responsible for someone (or yourself), going to the hospital or the morgue.
On a happier note, trad lead my first 5.8 and got to meet one of the original climbers at the area who put up some routes in the 60's. He was very nice and could still climb pretty good.
Josh
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j_ung
Oct 18, 2004, 1:37 PM
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Big ups, Josh. You did right. :)
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overlord
Oct 18, 2004, 2:09 PM
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jup, you did right. hope he listened.
kudos to you for not giving them a hard time for occupying a lot of routes.
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feanor007
Oct 18, 2004, 2:29 PM
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um, isn't that like the first thing you'r taught, never let go with the break hand? at least that's the first thing we teach in our climbing club. nice handling of the situation dispite the frustrations.
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climb_463
Oct 18, 2004, 10:00 PM
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Damn little guy...
Too bad that in climbing it's the climber that pays for the belayer's actions...
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winglady
Oct 18, 2004, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: um, isn't that like the first thing you'r taught, never let go with the break hand?
Maybe they thought it was supposed to be a break hand, so they thought it was OK to take breaks with it while belaying.
If they realized that it is a brake hand, maybe they would have understood how to belay properly. :roll:
(P.S. People who can't spell may not be able to follow this.)
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itakealot
Oct 18, 2004, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: um, isn't that like the first thing you'r taught, never let go with the break hand? Maybe they thought it was supposed to be a break hand, so they thought it was OK to take breaks with it while belaying. If they realized that it is a brake hand, maybe they would have understood how to belay properly. :roll: (P.S. People who can't spell may not be able to follow this.)
Huh :?:
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slablizard
Oct 18, 2004, 10:39 PM
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Riiiight choice.
One thing thou...If I'm starting a lead I have the precedence over whoever is setting a Top Rope. Lead does have precedence.
Who sets a TR should stop if some one is leading up the pitch. Unless they'r done already.
Still I would let them climb ONE TR and start m,y lead. Putting a rope over a climb doesn't mean you OWN the climb indefinitely.
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robmcc
Oct 18, 2004, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: One thing thou...If I'm starting a lead I have the precedence over whoever is setting a Top Rope. Lead does have precedence.
No it doesn't. Whoever gets there first has precedence. You're all climbers, leading or top roping is just how you're climbing that day.
If you're just saying you shouldn't set up a TR when someone is already leading...well, no kidding. ;)
In reply to: Putting a rope over a climb doesn't mean you OWN the climb indefinitely.
Yep. There's always room for courtesy.
Rob
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happiegrrrl
Oct 18, 2004, 10:52 PM
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Yup - first thing I was told was "Never take your brake hand off the rope."
That said....when a person isn't very experienced, it is *possible* to see that they *might* have some problems remembering to keep the hand on, especially if they get flustered because they are seeing slack develop in the rope if the climber moves faster that then can pull it up. (No need to sear me with 4th degree burns for this comment... I'm NOT condoning or excusing the behavior; just calling it as I see it. I know it was, and at times still can be(I'm a n00b, after all....), hard for me to keep a perfectly tensioned belay. However, if you simply can't resist, then by all means, flame away....And, by all means, feel free to point out that I am a n00b, so please STFU. I've yet to be told that.....maybe it will be good for me to hear.).
So - what I'm getting to is: As a climber, I take responsibilty for myself. That includes being confident in my belayer. So....what's a girl to do? If I don't know the belayer and their capacity for safe belay technique, I will:
1) Choose a climb that I feel confident in my ability to not fall off of for our first go. During that climb, I will be assessing their belay. I need to be fully prepared to downclimb and walk away if they are unsafe or, as is more likely, tell them what I need from them.
2) Take a look over my shoulder to see how they're doing on occasion, especially if I'm at a place where their attention is, in my opinion, critical. Again - I need to be prepared to tell them if they're not giving me what I need to feel safe.
3) Another thing that I was told early on, and I have really never heard since, is that it is the climber's responsibilty not to move more quickly than the belayer can keep up with. An experienced belayer knows how to get rope in and out fast, but new climbers won't. It is my responsibility to know what level experience those I choose to climb with have, and if I choose to climb with someone who may not yet have developed the more subtle skills, I need to make adjustments if I am to climb with them.
I know the original post was discussing the importance of getting the "Brake hand stays on the rope" concept out there, but I really think it is as important to keep the focus on ourselves. I can't change someone else; only can control my own behaviors and choices. I think, the sooner a new climber begins to take responsibility, rather than expecting to be taken care of, the safer we will be for ourselves and others around us.
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drector
Oct 18, 2004, 10:58 PM
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I've seen this a lot where I've even asked watch someone close up and they do it right in front of me. Maybe it's just for a quick moment but It sucks when you see it while on belay from your own belayer.
Everyone I've ever talked to about it got mad and even denied it which is just stupid since I'd have no reason to mention it if they looked good. I avoid climbing with anyone who thinks I'd lie about such a thing.
Good job pointing it out. Spread the word.
Dave
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caughtinside
Oct 18, 2004, 11:04 PM
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Happie. I disagree with all three of your points.
I like to climb hard. This may mean I will fall. I'm not out of line in expecting a catch from my belayer.
I climb at my own pace. I expect my belayer to keep up. So far this has never been a problem.
I don't look down at my belayer. They need to know what they're doing, so I can focus on the climb.
You are putting your life in the hands of your belayer, whether you realize it or not. Sure, you need to keep your head and be safe, but the belayer needs to never take their hand off the rope. Sure, giving a decent belay isn't difficult, but you can't be casual about it.
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crimpandgo
Oct 18, 2004, 11:22 PM
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In reply to: Yup - first thing I was told was "Never take your brake hand off the rope." That said....when a person isn't very experienced, it is *possible* to see that they *might* have some problems remembering to keep the hand on, especially if they get flustered because they are seeing slack develop in the rope if the climber moves faster that then can pull it up. (No need to sear me with 4th degree burns for this comment... I'm NOT condoning or excusing the behavior; just calling it as I see it. I know it was, and at times still can be(I'm a n00b, after all....), hard for me to keep a perfectly tensioned belay. However, if you simply can't resist, then by all means, flame away....And, by all means, feel free to point out that I am a n00b, so please STFU. I've yet to be told that.....maybe it will be good for me to hear.). So - what I'm getting to is: As a climber, I take responsibilty for myself. That includes being confident in my belayer. So....what's a girl to do? If I don't know the belayer and their capacity for safe belay technique, I will: 1) Choose a climb that I feel confident in my ability to not fall off of for our first go. During that climb, I will be assessing their belay. I need to be fully prepared to downclimb and walk away if they are unsafe or, as is more likely, tell them what I need from them. 2) Take a look over my shoulder to see how they're doing on occasion, especially if I'm at a place where their attention is, in my opinion, critical. Again - I need to be prepared to tell them if they're not giving me what I need to feel safe. 3) Another thing that I was told early on, and I have really never heard since, is that it is the climber's responsibilty not to move more quickly than the belayer can keep up with. An experienced belayer knows how to get rope in and out fast, but new climbers won't. It is my responsibility to know what level experience those I choose to climb with have, and if I choose to climb with someone who may not yet have developed the more subtle skills, I need to make adjustments if I am to climb with them. I know the original post was discussing the importance of getting the "Brake hand stays on the rope" concept out there, but I really think it is as important to keep the focus on ourselves. I can't change someone else; only can control my own behaviors and choices. I think, the sooner a new climber begins to take responsibility, rather than expecting to be taken care of, the safer we will be for ourselves and others around us.
gonna have to disagree too on same issues. I don't think you should be trying to assess your belayers ability from above. How can you be sure you won't fall?
I think it best to have another experienced person on the ground watching the inexperienced belayer instead of you trying to do it from above. The experienced person can even back the belay up to protect against a mistake made by the belayer.
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korntera
Oct 19, 2004, 12:00 AM
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The first thing i learned was to NOT TAKE MY BRAKE HAND OFF, the second thing i learned was to always have the rope locked if im not pulling in slack, just incase they fall. I always see people that have their brake hand on the rope but they would have almost a second or more of reaction time before the finally braked the rope because they leave their hands matched and fully outstretched UP in front of them. I mean yes they would still brake but that beginner on top rope would not like their huge fall on top rope because they arn't allways locked off.
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hemp22
Oct 19, 2004, 12:26 AM
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I actually have to (*sort of*) agree with Happie's 3rd point.
The belayer needs to be able to control the speed of the climb so that they can belay correctly.
You're absolutely right in that you're putting your life in the belayer's hands, and it's their job to keep you safe. And part of doing their job needs to be to tell the climber to slow down or stop if necessary.
But think of a situation like this: you're letting a relatively new belayer belay you as you sprint up a really easy route on TR. It's in your own best interest to let them tell you to stop for a minute while they catch up. (Granted, situations like this are pretty rare)
It's kind of like when you ask "On Belay?" before starting up a climb - you don't just assume that they're ready and start climbing because you're ready to go - you should wait for the response...
So, my opinion is that it's better to teach a new belayer that they are in charge of controlling the speed of a climb so that they can belay safely without ever removing their brake hand.
(note: this mostly applies to teaching new folks - an experienced belayer will be able to keep up with pretty much any speed climber without removing their brake hand)
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jcr
Oct 19, 2004, 12:44 AM
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Its incredible how much people dont do things right and WONT just because someone else told them they where wrong, specially in a sport that may cost your life. It is also incredible the numbers of times ive been told by people that nothing will happen. This are the people that make the sport a dangerous one.
I say, choose your belay partner wisely and let it be one that undersands and accepts his mistakes when they are told to them, a partner who learns and is constantly paying attention to what is happening up than to whats happening on the ground (if there is one thing I dont accept is for my belayer to be turned around sideways talking and having a conversation with someone else while Im leading, specially at the crux(and Ive seen this happen)).
I know that the guy you are talking about is probably a begginer, but I just felt like mentioning this point since its of big intrigue for me.
JC
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matixa
Oct 19, 2004, 1:15 AM
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See, I agree with Happy because I'm assuming that she means a new belayer (in general or to us, which we all have had time to time). Nothing wrong with letting someone get use to our particular climbing style.
Don't take your brake hand off the rope-isn't that climbing 101. You were protecting someone........how can anyone argue.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 19, 2004, 1:17 AM
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The climber in question did not have enough(if any) experience to even spot a bad belay if they saw one. I do not blame them, I blame the "boys" who brought them out there. When these girls told me they were saving a climb, I asked if they were leading it or setting up a toprope. They looked at me like I had three heads. They had no idea what I was talking about. They were relying on the others for their safety. Stupid? MAybe? But not knowing anything about climbing and being as young as they were, how were they supposed to know.
As for keeping up with the climber, he had no problem with that because he was just shuffling his brake down the rope. There is absolutely no excuse for taking your brake hand off the rope. I have never done it and I never will and would NEVER, happiegirl, allow someone to belay me who had an "it happens" attitude.
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itakealot
Oct 19, 2004, 1:27 AM
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In reply to: Its incredible how much people dont do things right and WONT just because someone else told them they where wrong, specially in a sport that may cost your life. It is also incredible the numbers of times ive been told by people that nothing will happen. This are the people that make the sport a dangerous one.
I CALL IT HUBRIS
Another thing I have heard: "my boyfriend taught me!" Then I tell her about the girlfriend who almost killed her boyfriend by belaying him.
I have seen a teenage boy drop his dad in the rock climbing gym doing the same thing. By the way, never tell a father that his boy is doing something wrong, since when I pointed it out he gave me that look that he was gonna kick my butt, luckily for me his son dropped him and he was out for months.
We must understand that not all people are born with deductive reasoning to think and say, "you know, you have a point there, I see if I release the rope with my breakhand, and the climber falls, the climber will deck."
It is hard to stand by and watch an event that you could have prevented. Sometimes I will say after politely correcting someone who just gave me attitude, "I just wanted to say something so I wouldn't feel bad if something happened."
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2004, 1:58 PM
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I have a feeling that this rash of 'bad belayers' we are seeing are gri-gri trained gym climbers. I shudder to think about what their top rope anchor looked like!
This particular guy was heckling the poor young girl he was belaying because it was her first climb and she was hanging a lot. Not keeping up with the slack was not an issue here. But imagine if he dropped her after harassing her. What a dope!
I also asked BEC (my husband) to say something because in my experience young boys don't usually take belaying advice very kindly when given by women. Yes, he was embarrassed, but as soon as it was pointed out to him he suddenly remembered correct belaying procedure. I blame it on the 'gri-gri'!
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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2004, 2:00 PM
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whoops. I posted twice. How do I delete?
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ctardi
Oct 19, 2004, 2:16 PM
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Wow, some people are just plain idiots. At teh gym I climb at, if they see you belaying wrong, and you won't accept advice, they boot you for a month.
As for younger people, being one myself, I know to respect those older then me, and listen to their advice, I was taught by a woman, I listened to her, and now I know the proper way to belay without dropping someone.
wonderwoman - Cant delete posts in here.
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bandidopeco
Oct 19, 2004, 2:42 PM
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One question: While belaying a sport leader with a gri-gri, how do you let out the rope without taking your break hand off? (I know I know, i'm going to get pounded for this one). If the leader is climbing slowly it's possible, but if they speed up it becomes more difficult. (Some might say throw the damn thing away, but it's pretty nice for sport climbing when someone is working the crux and hangs for a little while). Keep in mind that while belaying the leader you are generally much more vigilant because if you slack off you'll give them a real hard time.
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tgreene
Oct 19, 2004, 2:44 PM
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The last time I was out climbing (about a month ago w/ 2 other RC members), we arrived at the crags just after a ton of young (10-14 year olds) Boy scouts arrived. There were 2 groups of them, with 1 group being much larger and less orderly... We'll call them "Troop B".
Troop A: When I went up top to build a TR anchor, I noticed that the leader of the 2nd and smaller group was finishing building his 2 anchors, but that he only had 2 legs on the most critical (overhanging ledge). I quickly pointed this out to him in a very polite manner, and he responded that unfortunately that's all the gear that he had available to him, so I offered to add my gear and rebuild it for him... He was extremely grateful, and even called his scouts over to introduce myself and partners to them and explain to them how we helped, then publicly expressed his gratitude for our assistance. This was a wonderful thing for an adult to do, in order to instill that in the kids. :D
Troop B: A couple hours into our clusterfuck of a day (kids tramping on gear everywhere), I needed to hike back to the top of the crag, to reset the anchor, in order to move our rope slightly to the right, for a different route. While up top, one of my partners and I overheard a kid screaming and crying as if his eyes had just been plucked from his face, and he was being forced to eat them for lunch... I turned towards the shrieks, and discovered a fat little kid that was being FORCED to rap off of a overhang, against his will. The adult in charge looked to be a college kid that majored in 'Granola Grunge', and he was actually belittling the kid and making up stories about this and that, in order to coax the kid over the edge. The kid wanted off the rope, and the "adult" (term used loosely) was refusing to allow the kid to walk off... After several minutes of crying, the asshole finally let the kid go. As soon as the kid was out of sight, I went over and introduced myself!!!! I asked him who he is, what his experience level is, and if he has ever taken a fall. His response was that he and his buddy are PROFESSIONALS that work with an outdoors program that was contracted by this particular scouting troop. He claimed to have several years of experience as a climber, yet had never lead anything and didn't know anything about leading. He then responded that he falls all the time, and in fact, had just fallen off the top of this cliff a week prior (then began laughing) -- The cliff face is about 45 feet vertical, and the base is a steep slope to a stream about 25 feet below it. I told him that I had never before been so inclined to *push* somebody off a cliff, as I had been at that moment, because that was in effect what he was doing to the kids. :evil:
After this "altercation", I quickly rapped down and told the adults from Troop-A about this incident... They looked on in horror, as the asshole continued to do the same thing with yet another kid... This time however, the belayer (also a stupid Troop-B adult) was just allowing the rope to glide through his ATC, while he was busy chatting on his cell phone, while the asshole from aboves partner just looked on as if nothing was amiss! It would have been physically impossible to catch a fall, because the belayer wasn't even watching the kid. :shock:
We cringed and never said a word, because I had already twice been told by them to mind my own business. :?
My partners and I spent the day working very closely with the kids and parents from Troop-A. We lent them our shoes and superior harness' and a few of them were able to do really well that day on a 5.8 (they had never climbed before)! The other group (Troop-B) was floundering all over the place, and not a single kid was able to climb a 5.3/5.4, let alone ever get more than 15 feet off the ground!
After Troop-B had left, their 2 asshole PROFESSIONALS stayed around to climb, yet neither one was able to top out on a wimpy 5.6 stairstep... I took it upon myself to be a bit on the obnoxious and loud side, to see that they were genuinely humiliated in front of the other local climbers that had just arrived (and not witnessed anything), as well as the remainder of Troop-A that was mostly parents & leaders that stayed behind to learn to climb (from us amateurs), at this point.
After I trashed talked the assholes while they kept falling off the 5.6, they quickly got their shit together and left! 8^)
The parents & leaders from Troop-A, assured us that they would be filing a formal complaint with whatever the regional scouting oversight committee is, in regards to the safety and demeanor of the "adults" that were associated with Troop-B.
FWIW: My partners and I had first offered to help Troop-B, but were simply told by the troop leader to butt out, because they had hired experienced professional outdoor instructors that do this for a living! :idea:
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crimpandgo
Oct 19, 2004, 2:48 PM
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In reply to: See, I agree with Happy because I'm assuming that she means a new belayer (in general or to us, which we all have had time to time). Nothing wrong with letting someone get use to our particular climbing style. Don't take your brake hand off the rope-isn't that climbing 101. You were protecting someone........how can anyone argue.
New belayer or not, you dont teach the new belayer while you are 30 feet off the ground. Its best to have an experienced person standing right next to them watching the belayer until they are comfortable with the techniques. You cant possibly watch your belayer enough from above to keep you safe while you are climbing.
I agree there is nothing wrong with letting the belayer get used to your particular climbing style, but this is a different topic. A new belayer is getting used to belaying. You need to worry about this problem before you worry about them getting used to your climbing style.
It is best to have an experienced person on the ground watching the new belayer. If you cannot find another experienced person to go climbing with you, then I suggest you go to the gym first with the new belayer. It is usually pretty easy to find an experienced person there to help you out. And if you still are willing to accept an inexperienced person belaying you without supervision, at least there is padding on the floor to cushion your fall.
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