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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 2:56 AM
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Alpiner hit the nail on the head. The Pro in Professional photographer means you get paid!!!!!!!!!!!! The late Bob Perry told me many times that the key to being a pro was SELLING your pictures!!!
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thegreytradster
Nov 5, 2004, 3:57 AM
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In 1969 I got a job in a catalog house in Chicago back when that was the epicenter of that world. It didn't take long to figure out that the only ones that made any money were primarily exellent self promoters/salesmen and usualy not the best technicians, they did hire them though.
That market was thousands of times larger than the outdoor photography market, there still was room for only a handfull to really make any money at it and they were fiercely defensive of their turf. Find a carrer that lets you develop photography as a past time or sideline or enjoy the Ramen :wink:
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melekzek
Nov 5, 2004, 5:00 AM
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In reply to: Since april of this year I have put 16,492 photos into my hard drive.
so you are saying you have 16492 killer photos since april :roll:
do you care to submit some here?
i am not pro, but most of the stuff i have read agrees with dsafanda and overlord. if you can get 90%, kudos to you.
otherwise keep burning film/megabyte and trow the bad ones.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 2:52 PM
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They are not all killer photos but that is how many immages that I have saved on my hard drive. with the exception of some crap (about 500 shots) shot by assistants most of it is pretty good sellable stuff. i am not a fair weather shooter so if it is raining on the show I am still out there getting shots. Even in piss poor conditions I get saleable shots. they may not be killer but they are sellable. Recently I started shooting high school footbal. the ratio there is not my usual 90+ precent. I only shot 4 football games in my life. I WIIL NOT be submitting photos to RC.com I get PAID for my pictures. I did put one shot up on my local guide. That was one out of about 50 shots from that shoot. 90% of the shots from that shoot would have worked fine for that aplication. I am not a pro climbing photographer. I rarely even take a camera climbing. when I climb its my day off. you can see my work @ www.nkgphoto.com there is not much stuff in the galary as i just gave them a few shots when we were building the site and I only had a few digital shots on file as I had just started shooting digital. Most of my work is in the online store.
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dsafanda
Nov 5, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Wrong again Dsfanda.
Suit yourself. I'm not interested in arguing about it. I do some assignment and stock photography myself and my primary business as a graphic designer means that I deal with photographers all the time. In fact, right now I'm laying out the next edition of the SuperTopo Yosemite BigWalls Guide. I've got photos from Corey Rich, Greg Epperson, John Dickey, Jim Thornburg and others on my computer from which I will be choosing a select few. They don't send us rolls of film. They send us a selection of slides that were the result of many many rolls of film.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 3:21 PM
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Agreed, Sorry about the inflamitory (wrong again coment) They only send you the best of the best but to say that those guys can only get 2 good shots out of a roll is selling them a bit short. here is another question for you. When you are selecting images for print if you have high quality digital image that fits your needs would you pass over for a slide simply because you prefer to work with film over digital? the last Editior I talked with stated pretty clearly that she thought slides were better quality wise but prefered to work with digital files. She basicly stated that she was willing to sacrifice a small part of quality to ease up her workload. Human nature at work again.
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dsafanda
Nov 5, 2004, 3:37 PM
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Agreed.
...and between you and me I think these guys would be vert smart to switch to digital but I don't think a sinlge one of the guys I mentioned has made the transition yet. For a lot of people it's simply a matter of what you're comfortable with since you can get good result with both film and digital. Being a graphic designer, I'm much more comfortable with computers and the concept of RGB color space than I am with film and E6 processing. Film might as well be alchemy as far as I'm concerened. For me the switch to digital was as you say a "no brainer". I think that as you see younger and more computer friendly photographers emerge on the scene, you'll also see more investment in digital gear.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 3:51 PM
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Pretty soon you are gonna get some hot shot kid on the scene with digital know how who follows the next crop of teen wonders arround, simelear to how Tim K was able to work with dave G. and Joe K to advance all their careers. When that happens all the old guys are going to be scrambleing to catch up. When one of these guys figures out that he can shoot wireless internet photos to the editiors from his portaledge on el cap to make deadline on the hubers latest accomplishment there is going to be another scramble to catch up. the choice is do you want to play catch up or do you want to lead the pack?
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dsafanda
Nov 5, 2004, 4:00 PM
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Nikon D2X
drool
No WiFi on ElCap yet though. ;)
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 4:05 PM
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I have a D2X and yes it is an INSANE camera :twisted: Edited. sorry I have a D2H and yes it is an insane camera. the D2x will be out shortly.
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alpiner
Nov 5, 2004, 4:20 PM
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There is a lot more to learn about the backside of photography with digital than with film. Getting decent images is the easy part. Mastering workflow, from backups to keywording and invoicing, is the hard part. Film shooters had it easy, just drop the chromes at the lab. Now photographers must spend many extra hours post-processing (more so for Canon shooters) to make the same sale. The old crop of film shooters are in for a rude awakening when they finally make the switch. But the new crop has to contend with lousy software solutions (currently) so they must learn a half dozen poorly integrated programs to get the job done.
It's a lie to say digital is cheaper than film, indeed it is much more expensive when you factor in all the costs: software, storage (CD, DVD, and massive hard drives), computer upgrades (faster, more RAM), need to replace bodies every 2-3 years (with decreased resale value) instead of every 10-20 years, upgrading lenses to digital models (essential for wide angle), new printer every 2-3 years, expensive inks and paper.... Of course, digital is the only way to go but don't fool people into thinking they will save money.
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dsafanda
Nov 5, 2004, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: so they must learn a half dozen poorly integrated programs to get the job done.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. For Nikon shooters Nikon Capture and Photoshop are the only tools you really use and you don't actually need Nikon Capture. However, your point is valid and someone thinking about making the switch to digital should realize that they are definitely going to have to spend a fair amount of time learning the intricacies of digital workflow. Your point about the cost of computer and storage equipment is right on as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 5:00 PM
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:shock: :shock: :shock: No $hit :shock: I am one of the old filmsters that had to make the switch. the cost is staggering. the upside is I am selling more pictures. i can garuntee that if I did not get my website up and running this spring I would be out of buisness by now. My closest compettior has a website. He got his running in dec. of last year and while I was shooting film all winter at my winter day job (only work full time for myself in the summer/ horse season) spectrum photography was honeing his digital skills. several out of town shooters showed up on the scene as well this spring. I had to scramble and get a site up and running as an on line store in a few weeks this may. The only saveing grace was I had purchaced a D100 last august and shot several shows with it so I had at least some idea which end of the thing went bang. I was playing catch up and getting my a$$ kicked for the first 3rd of the summer. Things are running smooth now but I have some pretty massive debt. I lost about a grand on the D100 when I traded up to D2H and i had to buy a D70 as a backup. Tech help costs $60.00 per Hr. software costs$$ I had to get a 2nd harddrive installed, new 6 ink printer and way too much time wasted in here or on neclimbs when I should be working with this freaking beast. i need a 2nd D2H and a G5 . it never freaking ends with the technocrap. the upside is I work for myself, I am selling enough pictures to pay the bills and I like shooting for a liveing. A lady friend asked me the other day what my dream job would be and my answer was just what I am doing now but with a few more high roller clients. How many people can say that? i wouldn't want to be a full time climbing photographer because that would cut into my climbing time. Horse shows are on weekends and If I get my editing done on monday that often leaves me with tues through friday to climb. I do have to get on the computer for a few hours here and there but it can usualy be worked arround the climbing scedual 8^)
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alpiner
Nov 5, 2004, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: For Nikon shooters Nikon Capture and Photoshop are the only tools you really use and you don't actually need Nikon Capture.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Pretty much all of the software from Japan is lousy so most shooters don't bother with the offerings from Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc. for raw processing. Photoshop CS is powerful (once you spend a couple months figuring it out) but isn't a good solution for image management and archiving so you need something else (Iview, Portfolio, etc). But those programs suck for tracking submissions and other business tasks so you need something else (FotoBiz, Stockview, Photobyte, etc.). Then add on the Photoshop plug-ins: noise reduction, advanced sharpening, advanced upsizing algorhythms....
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nateyoun
Nov 5, 2004, 6:43 PM
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Hey... lots of advice out there.. so I don't want to repeat stuff.
to shoot great climbing shots, you will need some good rigging gear. I think this was mentioned once, but probably got lost in all this other stuff.
1. a long static line is nice.. this is easier to jug than a dynamic line,
2. chest harness.. helps support you when you're up there for a while
3. one or two Jumars and Aiders/loop of cord to step in
4. A GriGri.. I use one jumar and a grigri. some people use two jumars.
5. ATC or other double rope rappelling device.
6. lots draws and carabieners, probably some trad gear too to set up directionals
7. A stick clip.. this allows you to get up sport routes to either side of a route you want to photograph.
as for camera.. like lots of people have said, it's up to you. but good lense selection is a must.. I have a telephoto, wide angle, and a fixed 50.. i think it's important to have a lense with a small fstop (1.8 or so) because a lot of climbing takes place in the shade, or in the morning/evening.
for the film vs digital. a lot is up to you. I use slide film and I love the color, much so more than a digital picture.. velvia just gets really saturated. now you can always take a digital pic and manipulate it to make it look better.. I know first hand that alot of the climbing and skiing industry does not like using digital files. They like to know they have the original image. Black Diamond does not accept digital files. I'm pretty sure Climbing Magazine doesn't. Couloir would much much much rather have a slide... but my experience is limited to mostly the climbing industry. outside. i'm not sure.
I am planning on getting a digital camera for some things in the future. so it would be nice to have both..
oh.. another must.. a website. you need to have a website of your own that you can display your work..
nate
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melekzek
Nov 5, 2004, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: 2. chest harness.. helps support you when you're up there for a while
and a nice padded harness. minimalistic harnesses are not fun to hang. all guys know this
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melekzek
Nov 5, 2004, 7:29 PM
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what is the best thing about digital revolution?
second hand film equipment is getting dirt cheap.
for broke or cheapskate, thats me
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2004, 8:19 PM
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Nice site nate, you should get a mailbox in your site though. nate@cruxphoto.com is way more professional than anything@hotmail
Climbing magazine will NOT accept digital scans of slides. they want the origional. They DO accept 5 meggapixel or larger digital camera files. All of the magazines and advertisers that I have worked with in the last year have requested digital files. I have met several deadlines for advertisers simply by sending an email to the add editor. A whole lot cheaper and faster than Fed Ex.
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climbsomething
Nov 5, 2004, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: what is the best thing about digital revolution? second hand film equipment is getting dirt cheap. for broke or cheapskate, thats me
And yes, get a comfortable harness. I don't have a chest harness on my wish list, but a super-padded big wall harness would be swell. I had an epic shooting day once where my lovely trad model Kole was trying to get up this 5.12 tips-crack-and-stem-box and he kept falling but I couldn't give up and rap past him, cos he was right in my path. I was numb from the hips down. It was awfuuuuuul. I don't have nads to worry about, but I do value being able to feel my legs :oops:
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danokow
Nov 6, 2004, 3:03 AM
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Wow. I had no idea this was going to turn into a war. If i didn't know any better I'd say that I was a TROLL but I know I am not. I didn't mean to start a war between digital and film in the modern photgraphy industry or whatever else you were bickering about. I just wanted a few suggestions. I'd like to thank the people who actually understood what I wanted from my question. For those that didn't understand, I apologize for my lack of clarity. I think I have what I wanted and a little more; not so much things for a photographer but a reminder of how people can make mountains of out mole hills. Thank again.
-Dan
P.S. You can stop now before someone gets hurt.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 6, 2004, 3:10 AM
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You must be new to these boards. that was a friendly discussion. You get in the middle of a flame fest an you Will know the difference :twisted:
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danokow
Nov 6, 2004, 3:25 AM
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I don't post much nor do I reply much but I do read a lot of them. I read them cause you guys crack me up. i always get a few chuckles. Maybe I am seeing this from a simple eye. I can't help that. Thats how I am, simple. When things get complex I laugh and let roll it right off my back. But I guess others aren't like that. I think its like bouldering compared to trad. Bouldering is so basic and pure with few elements which is fine for me. You have trad which is complex, mass amounts of gear, and mind games which is fine for others but not me. People can say what they want. It doesn't bother me at all. Like I said before "I got what I want." Now I am starting to sound like some of you I'm sure. Oh well. Ob Bla De Ob Bla Da
-Dan
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karlbaba
Nov 6, 2004, 5:11 AM
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I guess I'll make about 15% of my living this year from photography, anticipating 20-25% next year, so I'm not a total pro. Of that, it's only 20% climbing photography and 80% landscapes and such.
Some observations:
For school assignments:
It doesn't hurt to question assumptions. It shows you are a critical thinker. In climbing photography there is no such thing as an unlimited budget for photo gear. If there are less than a handful of exceptions to that, it's only because they worked their way to the top while limited by budgets. Not getting killed means managing costs. Buying a $15,000 digital camera body that will be worth $2000 in three or four years is only practical for guys heavily employed by wealthy corporations.
Digital
Some folks use film, some use digital, but almost nobody uses a darkroom. The most particular and snobby landscape photographers who show at Ansel Adams gallery Almost ALL (and "almost" is just to cover my butt) have their slides scanned, worked on in photoshop, and printed digitally. Digital is expensive but way cheaper if you shoot alot. I spent a weekend in Bishop recently and shot 600 images. I couldn't begin to afford to do that with film. I find publishers more and more accepting of digital each year and it is only a matter of a SHORT time before it is standard to email/ftp images to the client.
Lots of my images might look fine, but having that special one that folks will recognize and be special is much rarer. Some very famous photographers are quoted as being happy with a couple images a year to really show off in their portfolio.
Peace
Karl
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melekzek
Nov 6, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #49 of 82
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pffft... that was nothing...
digital vs film
canon vs nikon
prime vs zoom
mix and match
I say (troll) film canon is better when used with prime than digital nikon with a zoom lens...
discuss
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 6, 2004, 3:17 PM
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Now i know you are smoking crack with that sensless babble. the best camera set up is the one that sells the most pictures. 100% of my income has been photography for the last 8 + years.
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