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mbg
Nov 10, 2004, 10:59 PM
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In reply to: Well, this topic is always good for a 20 page nut-kicking contest. Keep it up. Its entertaining and original.
:D
It was only a matter of time until this turned into a "I've been climbing longer than you so my opinion on an ethical issue is worth more than yours" arguement. :roll:
I do feel the original posts were getting into interesting territory, but oh well.
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grayhghost
Nov 10, 2004, 11:09 PM
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MIKE,
I think there is a danger in allowing such a
subjective idea as sharpness to dictate hold
modification. "Superfly" (a local boulder
problem around SLC) got comfortized because
one of the crimps was causing troubles
to someones right pointer finger. Sometimes
rock gets modified/comfortized so that someone
can get "just one more try" out of the session.
This type of ego-driven rock modification is
the same mechanism which drives outright
chipping. This idea is evidenced in Wild Iris,
where the rock needed to be filed to be climbed,
then that pushing of the boundries led to
some people (cough-hack-skinner-cough) to
just drill pockets where needed. Can you say
slippery slope?
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nateyoun
Nov 10, 2004, 11:39 PM
Post #53 of 150
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It's much easier to dyno/huck to a comfortized hold or from a comfortized hold. If its really sharp, you have to go static to it.. So comfortizing can make it easier (i know. it doesn't always...).
i have not put up sport routes,.
i have climbed on comfortized holds, and i've climbed on really sharp not comfortized holds. so i know the difference.
although it does make that route more fun if it's comfortized, I still don't think it's right. It changes how you would climb on it. You'd have to move more staticly, you'd have to tap your fingers.. thats what climbing is about. adapting to the rock. Unless it's a serious safety issue (example, loose rock in maple), don't change the rock.
I know people who support comfortizing want examples of places you've climbed where it hasn't been comfortized..
i'm not positive about all of them so.. i don't know if it's worth it.
I've been on some very new routes at ceuse with sharp holds. there is a very small crag about 1.5 hours from ceuse (can't remember name) with small sharp pockets. the Hoop lake in the uintas. (maybe?) the Happies and Sads have some problems that RARELY get done that aren't comfortized.. also, morning dove white. I used different pockets to try (sniff. so sad) to send it that weren't chalked and were sharp..
nate
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therealdeal
Nov 10, 2004, 11:54 PM
Post #54 of 150
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i think the general ethic is that one does not comfortize or "alter" in any way an existing or established problem/route. to do so is suck.
my POV is of the FAist. Noone has ever bitched at me for comfortizing holds...and i have been dissed for leaving a route sharp.
obviously it is a fine line, and really a decision one needs to make while putting up the route. I put thought into every aspect of putting up a route...including if a certain hold needs to be "softened" so that it can be held.
while i put up routes for myself, i do want them to be repeated, and i do want people to enjoy them when tey do climb them.
i have comfortized, but i have never chipped.
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rockprodigy
Nov 10, 2004, 11:58 PM
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Nate, I know you've climbed on comfortized holds because I've seen you at the VRG, the Hoop is also comfortized, and let that be the last time we ever mention that crag on this website.
As I said, it is a necessary evil. I would prefer not to do it, but then I'm not going to not climb on the best rock I've ever seen...that stuff around St. George. Since the rest of you are willing to not climb on it anyway, then, it shouldn't bother you if I do.
As Neal just said, this discussion is really only relevant to those of us who are putting up routes. The rest of you are entitled to your opinion, but we are the people who are acting on our opinions. It is a fine line, and I know where the line is, so I'm not worried about it.
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fracture
Nov 11, 2004, 12:04 AM
Post #56 of 150
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In reply to: Hmm, I'm still to young and strong to take up aid climbing. Besides, nailing is chipping! :P
Not to mention chipping bathook placements.... ;)
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fracture
Nov 11, 2004, 12:06 AM
Post #57 of 150
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In reply to: Perhaps some rock was not meant to be climbed.
You obviously aren't living in central Texas.
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haiku
Nov 11, 2004, 2:41 AM
Post #58 of 150
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In reply to: As I said, it is a necessary evil. I would prefer not to do it, but then I'm not going to not climb on the best rock I've ever seen...that stuff around St. George. Since the rest of you are willing to not climb on it anyway, then, it shouldn't bother you if I do.
I don't quite understand how your desire to climb the "best rock" necessitates modifications to make a route easier.
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haiku
Nov 11, 2004, 2:44 AM
Post #59 of 150
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In reply to: As I said, it is a necessary evil. I would prefer not to do it, but then I'm not going to not climb on the best rock I've ever seen...that stuff around St. George. Since the rest of you are willing to not climb on it anyway, then, it shouldn't bother you if I do.
I don't quite understand how your desire to climb the "best rock" necessitates modifications to make a route easier.
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shank
Nov 11, 2004, 3:40 AM
Post #60 of 150
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According to the climbing terms of this very site:
Chipping - n. the act of altering the rock by breaking it. Almost universally shunned by climbers, but still performed by those whose bodies and egos are too weak to meet the challenge of a climb.
Though I do think it should be a verb instead of a noun,
improving a hold, in any way, shape, or form, is chipping.
Rise to the challenge instead of lowering the bar.
But like you said it is a matter of ethics, and therefore people are still going to do it, and some will justify it with comment such as:
You shouldn't tell people how to establish route 2000 miles away.
You live in TN, I bet there are a lot of limestone crags around there.
It's a necessary evil.
Climbing ever square inch of rock is not necessary, therefore improve the holds on everroute that is painful is not necessary.
In reply to: I don't quite understand how your desire to climb the "best rock" necessitates modifications to make a route easier. |
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deschamps1000
Nov 11, 2004, 4:10 AM
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Are you kidding!? Not every piece of rock needs to be climbed. If it's too painful, move on to another route. :?
There's plenty of rock out there.
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fracture
Nov 11, 2004, 4:36 AM
Post #62 of 150
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In reply to: Chipping - n. the act of altering the rock by breaking it. Almost universally shunned by climbers, but still performed by those whose bodies and egos are too weak to meet the challenge of a climb. Though I do think it should be a verb instead of a noun, ...
You're wrong. "Chipping" is a gerund---a nounification of a verb---it functions grammatically as a noun, not as a verb. "To chip", and associated conjugations thereof, is the verb form.
Anyway, there are different kinds of chipping, comfortizing aside. Acting like it is universally evil to the same degree is dogmatic and simplistic.
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cacti-tro
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Nov 11, 2004, 4:48 AM
Post #63 of 150
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somebody can climb it, so dont go chipping the holds and ruin it for those people who can climb it the way it is.
'nuff said.
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rockprodigy
Nov 11, 2004, 4:49 AM
Post #64 of 150
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In reply to: I don't quite understand how your desire to climb the "best rock" necessitates modifications to make a route easier.
You're right, you don't understand. If you listen to the argument, maybe you'll come to understand, if you are stubborn, you won't.
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on_sight_man
Nov 11, 2004, 4:57 AM
Post #65 of 150
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In reply to: Anyway, there are different kinds of chipping, comfortizing aside. Acting like it is universally evil to the same degree is dogmatic and simplistic.
Agreed. "Killing is evil" well, not ALWAYS. Anyone who has put up a route has banged on the rock to get rid of big plates of crap. They clean out vegetation (which isn't changing the rock) and remove loose and even partially attached stuff. When done in that spirit, filing a hold can make sense. If it's so thin that it'll soon be coming of anyway thewn it doesn't matter and should probably be cleaned. Think Kant. It's about your motivation.
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ema
Nov 11, 2004, 5:05 AM
Post #66 of 150
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comfortizing?
just quit climbing.
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rockprodigy
Nov 11, 2004, 5:07 AM
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You guys must be the people from the red states that think you can dictate to the rest of the country what their morals should be.
If you take anything away from this discussion: LOCAL ethics are established at the LOCAL level.
That's why you should not tell me how to bolt routes from 2000 miles away. You have not seen the rock, you don't know what you are talking about. Comfortizing is not chipping, and for the love of god, the "definitions" on this website have about as much basis in fact as W's evidence of WMD's. As soon as you quote that crap, you lose all credibility.
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kafish
Nov 11, 2004, 5:16 AM
Post #68 of 150
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i love the pc term for chipping. Basically climbing hurts, it hurts your tips, tendons, posture, ego... pain is part of it. Be a man and bear down on sharp holds or find something else. I don't see this as about altering rock. ALL climbing alters rock in some way, it is about you being the one that determines the experience of all other climbers that follow you. Let them enjoy the climb the same way you did at first, take in both the good and the bad. Variety keeps climbing interesting.
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haiku
Nov 11, 2004, 8:47 AM
Post #69 of 150
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Comfortizing....comfortize....comfort...dumbing stuff down 'til you are comfortable. Why does that seem like an injustice to the freeclimbing community?
I will be the first to say that I do not climb nearly as well as you prodigies, but I do what my frail mortal body will let me. If ever I come close to blurring the line between the rockclimbing dieties and me, I would like to think that I am honorable enough to conquer the challenge rather than reduce it. If I cannot climb something because my poor little fingers cannot handle the pain, I will gladly bow my head and walk away.
I must admit that I am sincerely impressed that many of you can climb far better than I even with your balance so off kilter from the inflated ego-to-testicle ratio.
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mheyman
Nov 11, 2004, 1:08 PM
Post #70 of 150
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In reply to: This is like saying on a marathon race you are going to take a short cut!!!!!!
Reply: No, I only cut the corners
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overlord
Nov 11, 2004, 2:15 PM
Post #71 of 150
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In reply to: What are your opinions on comfortizing holds.
thats easy. dont do it.
why not just stay at home in front of the TV if its too uncomfortable????
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therealdeal
Nov 11, 2004, 2:25 PM
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Well, it really does not matter what any of you "purists" think, b/c the people out there putting up the routes you climb on will continue to do what they do...and you'll continue to climb the routes in blissful ignorance.
enjoy...
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fracture
Nov 11, 2004, 2:40 PM
Post #73 of 150
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In reply to: In reply to: Anyway, there are different kinds of chipping, comfortizing aside. Acting like it is universally evil to the same degree is dogmatic and simplistic. Agreed. "Killing is evil" well, not ALWAYS.
Very few people think killing is always wrong. Even a complete pacifist will grant that there are different degrees. Murder 1 vs. manslaughter are completely different things. And then there are different kinds of Murder 1....
Things aren't so simple and absolute, no matter how much you'd like them to be....
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fracture
Nov 11, 2004, 2:42 PM
Post #74 of 150
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In reply to: comfortizing? just quit climbing.
Time for you to stop climbing at Reimer's, then, eh? ;)
Tons of routes there are comfortized, or full-on chipped.
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eastvillage
Nov 11, 2004, 2:53 PM
Post #75 of 150
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Comfortizing? Give yourself and the rest of us a break. People who do this are cowards, who should get a new life in a different sport.
If the holds are too sharp, toughen yourself, don't dull the rock.
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