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jimfix
Nov 23, 2004, 10:31 PM
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I was wondering what the relative advantages/disadvantages trad draws have vs. quick draws in both sports and trad climbing.
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keinangst
Nov 23, 2004, 10:38 PM
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Sport draws are small and compact, good mainly for sport. They can be used for trad, but if the route wanders you'll get gear shifting and lots of rope drag.
Trad draws are great all around (both), but are a little bulkier and harder to "quick draw" than, well, quickdraws.
I've never had any trouble using trad draws for sport, but HAVE had trouble vice versa.
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petsfed
Nov 23, 2004, 10:59 PM
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Trad draws, otherwise known as "slings" are practical when the route wanders a lot. If the route is pretty much plumb bob straight, anything other than quicks are a waste of weight. If the pro is not going to walk or shift (like bolts or pins) and the route doesn't wander much, use a quick. Also use a quick if you can deal with extra rope drag in the name of shorter falls, but the pro is still solid. If the pro is likely to shift or the route wanders considerably, use a sling. Rope drag is rope drag, regardless of what kind of pro (bolts, nuts, cams) so sling the pro long if you don't want rope drag. Get the lightest slings you can afford, but pick the quickdraw that you like the best re: clipping, yarding, racking, weight.
/"trad draws"? sheesh
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muslmutt
Nov 24, 2004, 5:01 PM
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Sport draws are also often stiffer, some even grip the biners. Which is great for quickly and accurately clipping bolts in desperate moments. When you have a small stopper nut in a less than perfect placement the last thing you want is a stiff draw.(just one example) It will look ok when you set it, it's when you climb past things start to go bad. This will be magnified if you are not going straight up. God help ya if you zig zag. Draws are cheap. I have two sets one sport, one trad, sometimes they play together.
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dingus
Nov 24, 2004, 5:05 PM
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They are relatives. Both have a place on your trad rack IMO.
DMT
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punkclimber52
Nov 24, 2004, 5:09 PM
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Quick Draws:
- Quick to grab
- easy to manage (less chance of getting tangled in other gear)
- not extendable
Trad draws:
- not as quick to grab (more congested)
- not as easy to manage (can get tangled in other gear)
- extendable when needed
Doesn't matter if its sport or trad like already said. Just depends on if the line is straight up(extension not needed) or if it wanders (extension is nice).
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petsfed
Nov 24, 2004, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: Sport draws are also often stiffer, some even grip the biners. Which is great for quickly and accurately clipping bolts in desperate moments. When you have a small stopper nut in a less than perfect placement the last thing you want is a stiff draw.(just one example) It will look ok when you set it, it's when you climb past things start to go bad. This will be magnified if you are not going straight up. God help ya if you zig zag. Draws are cheap. I have two sets one sport, one trad, sometimes they play together.
Where does this dogma come from?! Check out Flakes of Wrath or Edward's Crack for good examples of when a quickdraw is better than a long sling. The stiffness of the sling can figure into pro walking out, but a much greater factor is the length of the sling. Rope drag (as experienced when you use too short of slings) will effect pro much worse than stiff draws because the draw itself is still free to move. Think length of sling, not stiffness!
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robdotcalm
Nov 24, 2004, 5:52 PM
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«Where does this dogma come from?! Check out Flakes of Wrath or Edward's Crack for good examples of when a quickdraw is better than a long sling. »
Haven’t climbed Flakes but not sure what Edwards’ Crack has to do with this, since it’s mostly straight up. Until some data is provided, no definitive conclusion can be drawn as to whether there is or is not a safety hazard associated with using a stiff draw on marginal gear. I avoid doing so based on common sense but have no evidence to support the practice.
I remember the first time I saw quick draws. It was at the Amphitheatre in the Boulder Flatirons in the early 70s. They were made from one inch webbing, tied off with a water knot whose ends were sewn back into the webbing. Wow! Struck as a great idea, and we made some. Until then shorter slings were made by doubling longer slings. Also this was just about the time that the first gear loops were appearing on harnesses (although, I was still probably tying directly into the rope with a bowline on a coil).
Language police pronouncements: “trad draws” is not an acceptable substitute for “sling”. It’s “Edwards’ Crack” not “Edward’s Crack”
Vale,
RobertusPunctumPacificus
24 November 2004 10:41 MST (-6 UMT)
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 24, 2004, 6:07 PM
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Trad draws are dangerous for sport if it is hard enough that you are actually taking falls. (they are subject to crossloading, getting tangled, being backclipped, being twisted, etc.)
As far as stiff petzl type sport draws. I think they are often pretty much unsafe when used on a trad climb. Stiffness does make a difference, almost as much as length. A couple short quickdraws made with 10mm dynnema can be useful. The dogbone length(20cm?) is even more useful. Other then that, long slings are the way to go. Of course there are exceptions to this. ie devils tower type routes or indian creek, but these are the exceptions rather than the rule
Many people like short draws because they think it makes the potential fall shorter. A six inch shorter fall is not worth an increased risk of decking due to a placement failing due to the use of too short of a sling.
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petsfed
Nov 24, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: Haven’t climbed Flakes but not sure what Edwards’ Crack has to do with this, since it’s mostly straight up. Until some data is provided, no definitive conclusion can be drawn as to whether there is or is not a safety hazard associated with using a stiff draw on marginal gear. I avoid doing so based on common sense but have no evidence to support the practice.
Okay, better example: Kim which features a prominent lean and several good nut placements. Or Cornelius. If you use anything longer than a quickdraw to sling some of the lower nuts on Cornelius (or anywhere on Kim), you may very well deck.
As far as Flakes of Wrath goes, if you follow the prevailing wisdom (shoulder length sling on any nut you place) you will clip the rope at the next finger lock down and will not have saved yourself any ropedrag for your troubles.
Admittedly, I don't carry quickdraws while alpine climbing, this is because the routes I do (and have done) are too wandering and/or run out to make quickdraws useful.
Finally, in regards to the nomenclature: the term "trad draw" was developed as a marketing ploy to make people think that a shoulder length sling with two carabiners was something new and amazing. Its not. And it ellicits that fingernails-on-a-chalkboard response I get when I hear libary, axe (in lieu of ask) and herstory. Its bad english!
You are correct about Edwards' Crack though.
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euroford
Nov 24, 2004, 6:26 PM
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i use a combo of both for trad climbing. my favorite quick draw slings for trad are the 15cm REI/Redpoint slings. nice floppy nylon, cheap. i've never had problems with gear walking when using these. of course, cams walking and nuts popping due to drag are as much dependent on your placement as they are the sling. Slings/draws are for preventing rope drag, and hopefully your skill with a placement prevents walking. of course the mammuts are the superior slings for 24" and 48" lengths.
in my climbing, the only reason to use a quick draw over a trippled runner (aka, trad draw) is personal prefrence. i could certainly get away without carrying quickdraws, and sometimes i do, but i like to have some with me.
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chriss
Nov 24, 2004, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: I was wondering what the relative advantages/disadvantages trad draws have vs. quick draws in both sports and trad climbing.
"Why is sport climbing gear stronger than trad climbing gear?"
Where does this stuff come from? Is this coming from climbing magazines and websites? What differentiates gear for sport from that for trad? I realize there are products better suited for some types of climbing over others, but why must we draw this sport-trad line all the time?
Back to slings-draws-quickdraws. All are made from webbing of different lengths and materials. Almost all are carried with 2 biners ready to clip. Longer "singles" and "doubles" are typically carried over the shoulder or looped multiple times to make them shorter.
All are climbing gear. Sorry for the rant.
chris
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mattm
Nov 24, 2004, 6:46 PM
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I find I climb with a mix of trad draws and regular draws. I agree that trad draws is a lame name because its really just a 24in sling tripled up with two biners. For the sake of less typing though, I'll use trad draw in this... I carry both because a lot of the long multi pitch stuff I do has mixed pro - bolts with cracks and nut placements etc etc. Draws go on the bolts, trad draws clip the nuts and extend, I sometimes clip regular draws onto cams for a half/extended placement (But may look into getting 18in custom slings sewn onto the cams - see replacing sling thread on here - AWESOME!)
If you're just sport climbing though - go with regular draws as I agree with alpineclmr - the trad draw is more likely to cross load and really is a nice way to carry a 24in sling that needs to be extended
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dirtineye
Nov 24, 2004, 6:58 PM
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deja vu
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forkliftdaddy
Nov 24, 2004, 7:08 PM
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i climb trad with an assortment of slings (including a couple quick draws). the look of the route -- wandering or not -- generally dictates the slings i take. when the route wanders minimally, i usually opt for short, OPEN slings rather than quick draws. i place a lot of passive pro and the idea of a stiff, dogboned runner (quickdraw) wiggling a nut, a brassy, or, worst of all, a tricam is tres spooky. i do carry a 1-3 quick draws for the occasional bolt, bomber piece or cam. but more often i reach for short (10 cm) to medium (25 cm) slings.
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jimfix
Nov 24, 2004, 11:08 PM
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Thanks all, I guess I'll replace my quickdraws webbing with slings for the majority of my draws, as I'm too cheap to by a second set of draws just for my sports climbing. Heck, some of the routes I've climbed have needed runners for bolts due to placement under roofs etc. The minor advantages of a stiff sling make long slings a more attractive alternative.
I can't argue that trad draws isn't technically correct, however new words are the way that English evolves/progresses. After all, when you read trad draw do you have any doubt as to what a trad draw is? To put it in the same class as axe(ask) and thang(thing) is a little unfair, which I'd agree is lazy and poor English.
24' sling tripled up with two karabiners seems longwinded when trad draw conveys the same information.
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sbaclimber
Nov 25, 2004, 12:47 AM
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even tripled up, 24' makes for one hell of a long sling :wink:
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