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verticalwalker
Dec 2, 2004, 3:15 PM
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I have always climbed on a 8, but i have been hearing people talk about climbing on a bowline. What do people think about tieing in with a bowline?
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mother_sheep
Dec 2, 2004, 3:18 PM
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use a DOUBLE bowline. It's easier to untie than an 8.
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clausti
Dec 2, 2004, 3:30 PM
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edit: delete.
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shakylegs
Dec 2, 2004, 3:32 PM
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Redundancy, I guess.
But like the mother said, they're a lot easier to untie.
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mother_sheep
Dec 2, 2004, 3:36 PM
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The bowline is not as strong as the 8 and is more prone to slippage, keep that in mind.
Like shaky said, redundancy, kinda like the 8 follow through.
For the record, I typically use an 8 follow through BUT would not be opposed to using a bowline either.
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iclimbtoo
Dec 2, 2004, 3:53 PM
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I use an 8, but just 'cause that's what I've always used. I think you need a double and not a single because a double is redundant and it gives the knot more of it's rope-strength retention.
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keinangst
Dec 2, 2004, 3:56 PM
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double bowline.
Ease of untying, and cool factor--as all the noobs look at your rack and your funny tie-in knot and wonder how you're gonna get the rope up there.
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shakylegs
Dec 2, 2004, 4:23 PM
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Sad but true: the other night at the gym (yeah, shoot me, it’s cold outside with no snow), I was told I could no longer use the double (or any) bowline, because the UIAA deemed it unsafe. Figure 8 only. I’m sure that’s bull, but I wasn’t going to argue the point.
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cbare
Dec 2, 2004, 4:34 PM
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I always tie in with a figure 8 follow through. This is because it is easy for a noob such as my self to do and it is easy to untie and inspect at a glance. However, the doudle bowline is quite strong and secure and I would have no problem tying into my harness with it, and I have seen a fair number of people lead climb with this knot.
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shorty
Dec 2, 2004, 4:36 PM
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My response is based on discussions from a recent AGMA top rope site manager course.
From a climber's perspective, there isn't a practical strength difference between tying in with a figure 8 or a bowline. In theory, both knots are weaker than the tensile strength of the rope. In theory. But our instructor had just returned from Bluewater's factory, where they had pull tested a number of knots, slings, and pro to failure on Bluewater's equipment. He showed us a few examples of where lead ropes tied with figure 8's and bowlines broke not at the knot, but either at a straight section of the rope (i.e. a few inches forward of the knot) or at the loop that is attached to our harnesses (i.e. a few inches behind the knot). I was pretty much speechless for a while, as this goes against much of the historical "wisdom" passed down through climbing circles.
Theoretically, the figure 8 knot is slightly stronger than the bowline, as the 8 bends the rope in slightly wider arcs. The double bowline is slightly stronger than the single bowline for the same reason (i.e. the rope bends aren't so tight). I was always taught to make a "pretty" figure 8 by making certain that the rope strands lay perfectly parallel to each other throughout the knot. Tests show that the "ugly" 8 (with strands crossing each other within the knot) is actually stronger, as the rope's bends aren't as tight.
But the bottom line on knot strength is that as long as you are properly tied into your harness and your knot doesn't come untied (the next discussion), your knot will almost certainly not be the weak link in your protection system -- your pro and your belayer are more likely the cause of injury.
As for the security issue, a bowline is definitely easier to untie after being weighted than a figure 8. Even more so when it hasn't been weighted. Therefore, a backup knot (overhand or 1/2 grapevine) is pretty much mandatory for safety. This is especially true with stiffer ropes. The practice of a backup knot came from the period of tying into a swami with a Goldline rope. Old timers will appreciate doing anything with a Goldline rope.
Security with a figure 8 is a different matter. With modern, (relatively) soft ropes, a properly tied figure 8 is bomber. I was always taught to tie the backup (i.e. "safety") knot for the 8, but it is really unnecessary. At Bluewater, they tied a figure 8, then unwove the last threaded bend of the knot (think of this as "figure 7" knot), and pull tested the knot. The knot didn't unravel and the rope broke either above or below the knot. So much for old-time climbing folklore. Hopefully, this type of data will be published in the near future.
As a final note for tie in knots, IMO it's generally easier to teach a newbie to tie a figure 8 than a bowline and it's pretty easy to visually check that an 8 is properly tied. But for the experienced climber, either knot works just fine.
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fracture
Dec 2, 2004, 4:40 PM
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A double bowline (which is what I use for sport climbing) is not any more "redundant" than a single. It's still just one knot.
What it is, is a little more secure of a knot. That is, it is harder for it to come undone accidently than a single bowline. Still, plenty of people use single bowlines to climb on as well (I know at least two). A single bowline with a yosemite finish seems reasonably secure.
All the different bowlines are less prone to jamming than the figure 8, which is an advantage if you are tying in and untying often and after frequent falls (i.e. sport climbing).
The relative strengths of the knots is irrelevant in modern dynamic rope.
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abalch
Dec 2, 2004, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: A double bowline (which is what I use for sport climbing) is not any more "redundant" than a single. It's still just one knot. What it is, is a little more secure of a knot. That is, it is harder for it to come undone accidently than a single bowline. Still, plenty of people use single bowlines to climb on as well (I know at least two). A single bowline with a yosemite finish seems reasonably secure. All the different bowlines are less prone to jamming than the figure 8, which is an advantage if you are tying in and untying often and after frequent falls (i.e. sport climbing). The relative strengths of the knots is irrelevant in modern dynamic rope.
It seems most people, except you, (who technically are right) are using double bowline to speak of a retraced bowline. To tiie a double bowline, you would make a double coil of rope for the first part of the knot, and with a retraced you would make a sinle bowline, and retrace the entire knot back through your harnes, and then tie a backup knot if you desire/feel it is required.
So, a double bowline, is one knot, but a retraced bowline must have the entire retraced portion come untied before you are down to a single bowline, so you could say it is knotted twice as much as a single bowline. This is a safety feature I like when using the bowline--you have two strands of rope going through your harness, and even if the retraced portion works loose, you are still tied in with a single bowline. This, in my experience is a near impossibility, so with a retraced bowline I have on occassion not tied a backup knot, because it is its own backup knot.
edited because at the end I slipped up and called a retraced a double bowline. :oops:
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magpie
Dec 2, 2004, 5:24 PM
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I love the double bowline. I always always back it up with a (double) fishermans. Hell, I always backed up my 8's with a fishermans too. I've heard folks mention that the bowline is more likely to come untied, so I always make sure that my back up knot is bomber. After falling on an 8 (especially lead falls) it can be tough to untie, as others have mentioned, especially after a pumpy route. (and we all love asking our belayers for help untiying our knot...)
I agree, however, that it's a little trickier to get comfortable with, so I wouldn't start using it without careful monitoring by someone who knows the knot. Once you know it, it's easy to look at and see if it's tied correctly.
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glowering
Dec 2, 2004, 6:02 PM
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Dressing an 8, i.e. making it pretty, makes it easier to untie and inspect.
I like the double bowline (the REAL double bowline :wink: that is the one two loops for the rabbit to go thru :) ) with a double overhand backup.
The rewoven bowline takes more rope and time. I'd rather not have the extra loops of rope in the main knot that the Yosemite finish creates.
You need a back up on a single or double bowline because if you are rapping or lowering and the loop going around the standing end (the long end towards the belayer/anchor) gets caught on something it could pull out of the single or double loop.
Stick with an 8 until all of that makes sense to you. 8^)
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yamama
Dec 2, 2004, 6:32 PM
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I work at a camp during the summer and every year they have some guy come down and tell us how to set up everything. The first year i went they made us use the double bowline (D-B) every time we hooked up a kid, with one screw gate locking biner. The next year they made us use the D-B with two locking biners (screw gate) or one self locking... which i think is crazy. I think that one screw gate locking is just as good as one self locking only because after a while the self locking sticks and sometimes wont shut all the way. Which if you fell on it wrong would come undone and kill somebody. At the end of one summer all the self locking biners were bad and we had to take all of them down and use the good old screw gate.
But back to the 8 and D-B, my friends and i use the 8 when we climb natural rock, b/c with the D-B u need a biner and that will get all messed up by the rocks when climbing. At the camp i work at it's all outdoor wall stuff. But once a week we go down a hill to a natrual rock place and use the 8. So i think they are both just as safe but one you use with natural rock and the other you use with climbing walls. Not sure that helped that much but i think they both are good knots.
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salathiel
Dec 2, 2004, 6:33 PM
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I use the double bowline (two rabbit holes) to TR, but when leading (I have only climbed trad) I use the figure eight, because it is easier for my partner and I to determine whether it is tied correctly.
Do what you feel most comfy with, as long at it won't kill you.
Blur
P.S. I think that whole UIAA determining that the Double bowline is unsafe is Bullshiite. Ask your gym to document that! If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is misinformation...maybe that's why I am agin the war. That is another argument, one that should be saved for Community.
Blur
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davidji
Dec 2, 2004, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: The bowline is not as strong as the 8 and is more prone to slippage, keep that in mind. |
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mingleefu
Dec 2, 2004, 6:40 PM
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I think I may have posted this before, but I here it is again. I learned to tie this finish for the double bowline from Climbing magazine. I've been climbing on the double bowline for a couple years, and it is a beaut: Clean, slim profile, and easy to untie after a whip. I can cinch it real close to my harness and it never gets in the way.
I've been asked by members of the local climbing club what exactly I've done. So I reproduced the article here:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/...batUIUC/bowline.html
incidently, the Bowline is WAY easier to untie than the fig of 8. Even a properly dressed 8 (i'm not sure why so many people don't dress their 8's correctly), when cinched, will be much harder to untie. No matter the pump, I'm always able to get the Bowline undone.
8 or bowline? No contest: Bowline.
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shakylegs
Dec 2, 2004, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: b/c with the D-B u need a biner and that will get all messed up by the rocks when climbing.
I hate to say this, but you're wrong.
As to getting the gym to change its stance: nah, I've got other windmills at which to tilt.
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cracklover
Dec 2, 2004, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: why a double specifically over a single? I climb on an 8, but work at a concert venue, and when we rig shows, we'll send stuff up on a single pretty frequently... I mean... the knot isnt gonna come out.
A single bowline actually does have a serious flaw that can cause it to fail in climbing applications, though it would not fail in the rigging applications you are talking about.
When the load is through the knot, the single bowline is a very strong knot, however when the load is across the knot, the tail can get sucked right into and through the knot, causing failure. Pardon the crude diagram I made:
http://gallery.consumerreview.com/...s/single_bowline.jpg
In your use in rigging, the load would always be in the proper direction. But in climbing, if you were to fall and the loop of the single, unbacked up bowline were to catch on anything, the knot could completely unravel. Or if you were to clip into an anchor through the loop of knot on your harness, this too could cause the single, unbacked up bowline to unravel.
The double bowline, the bowline with a yosemite finish or the bowline with a fisherman's backup, are all unlikely to unravel when weighted across the loop.
GO
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cracklover
Dec 2, 2004, 7:34 PM
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Oh, and to answer the question of the original poster - I pretty much always tie in with the fig-8, but if I were to work a sport route on a big fuzzy rope, I'd tie in with a double-bowline with a yosemite finish instead.
GO
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yamama
Dec 2, 2004, 7:47 PM
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Sorry shakylegs... what i intended to say was that it's easier to use a D-B with a biner rather than take'n like 5min. to tie a knot and not use a biner. But then again i've never used a double bowline without a biner to tie to my harness, so I don’t know how long it takes to tie. I'd rather use the 8 and take an extra 30sec. to undo the knot. Yet again i've never seen anybody use anything other than a 8 to climb with.
And please tell me or send me to a site that shows how to tie a double bowline to a harness with out a biner. I'll see which one i like more, the 8 or double on my harness.
And i'm not wrong about what i said shakylegs (well it depends on what u say i'm wrong about, the biner, or it getting messed up)... u can use the double bowline WITH A BINER to tie into your harness. We do it every day at the camp i work at.
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shakylegs
Dec 2, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Tying the knot to the biner to the harness: you're adding another (unnecessary) link to the system. You don't need the biner; simply thread the rope through your harness as you would with a figure 8. Do the double loop thing on the rope, and tie the knot.
You may have to use a biner at the camp where you work for reasons of quickness and never having to tie and untie the knot, thus a liability issue.
Someone else will have to provide a link with a picture.
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forkliftdaddy
Dec 2, 2004, 8:01 PM
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shorty, nice post. lots of good info there!
i almost alwys use the double bowline when i'm sport climbing. when climbing one pitch trad i often use it, especially if the route is below my limit or i have it wired. if i expect to be sketched out on the route, questioning everything in the system, i tie in with an 8. and on multipitch, i tie in with an eight. ice and aid, i use an 8.
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yamama
Dec 2, 2004, 8:22 PM
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So what i said was "with the D-B u need a biner and that will get all messed up by the rocks when climbing." It's not unnecessary, you can use a biner to make it faster. At our camp we have a line of 40 kids who all want to climb the same wall. Tie'n the knot and putting a biner in the double loops and then to the harness makes it alot faster. If you have 40 kids who have to get up the wall in under an hour and 30 min how would u use the bowline, with or without the biner? If you want you can come down and tie all the double bowline knots you want... we just tie one and put a BINER on it and it's done.
I'm sure you can tie it on a harness but it would take way to long... just think about it 40 yelling kids and you're tie'n a knot, rather than clipping a biner on them.
This is the one i'm talking about.
http://www.tollesburysc.co.uk/Knots/Double_bowline.htm
Is this the one you're talking about?
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/doublebowline.html
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