|
boulder_monkey
Dec 2, 2004, 9:09 PM
Post #26 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 60
|
double bowline with a stopper to tie off the end.....just personal preference i suppose. besides the fact that its easier to untie after a fall, i just like it cuz i know it. pretty spiffy knot if ya ask me! :P
|
|
|
|
|
allan_thomson
Dec 2, 2004, 9:22 PM
Post #27 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 596
|
I used both a fig8 and a bowline. I was first taught the bowline, then later someone else taught me the 8. 8's I find are easier to tie than bowlines. Just depends what you prefer.
|
|
|
|
|
abalch
Dec 2, 2004, 11:43 PM
Post #28 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 179
|
In reply to: I work at a camp during the summer and every year they have some guy come down and tell us how to set up everything. The first year i went they made us use the double bowline (D-B) every time we hooked up a kid, with one screw gate locking biner. The next year they made us use the D-B with two locking biners (screw gate) or one self locking... which i think is crazy. I think that one screw gate locking is just as good as one self locking only because after a while the self locking sticks and sometimes wont shut all the way. Which if you fell on it wrong would come undone and kill somebody. At the end of one summer all the self locking biners were bad and we had to take all of them down and use the good old screw gate. But back to the 8 and D-B, my friends and i use the 8 when we climb natural rock, b/c with the D-B u need a biner and that will get all messed up by the rocks when climbing. At the camp i work at it's all outdoor wall stuff. But once a week we go down a hill to a natrual rock place and use the 8. So i think they are both just as safe but one you use with natural rock and the other you use with climbing walls. Not sure that helped that much but i think they both are good knots.
Again--people are getting messed up on the names for these various knots. What you describe, I can only assume is a bowline on a bight. You are taking a bight, and tying a bowline, which happens to double up everything going through the knot, your harnes, etc. At the end, you are clipping a locker to the loop at the end of the knot, and to one side of the loop going through your harness. This is a good, quick way to tie into the middle of a rope if you are the middle of a three person team, and even a good way to tie in a person quickly in the case you speak of. The only question I have is what do you do with the tail that is alongside of the rest of the rope leaving the knot? do you tie a backup knot with that to make sure that it doesn't slip out of the knot, and begin to untie your whole bowline on a bight? Not that I think that would very quickly compromise your knot, since you in essence have a rewoven bowline, I am just curious.
|
|
|
|
|
abalch
Dec 2, 2004, 11:47 PM
Post #29 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 179
|
In reply to: Tying the knot to the biner to the harness: you're adding another (unnecessary) link to the system. You don't need the biner; simply thread the rope through your harness as you would with a figure 8. Do the double loop thing on the rope, and tie the knot. You may have to use a biner at the camp where you work for reasons of quickness and never having to tie and untie the knot, thus a liability issue. Someone else will have to provide a link with a picture.
Shakylegs, look at my other post where I respond to Yamama, and I think you will understand he isn't tying the bowline to a biner that is clipped to the harness, he is using the biner clipped through the loop left on a bowline on a bight at the end of the knot, to the second half of the loop of the bowline going through the harness. The biner takes the place of a backup knot.
If he was just clipping the knot to the harness, there would be no need to untie the knot each time, and it would only take about ten seconds to switch people out of the climb. That, I would aggree unless all you are doing is toproping, is a dangerous thing to do. You can crossload the biner in that case during a lead fall, and it is an unneccessary link in the system.
|
|
|
|
|
leinosaur
Dec 3, 2004, 12:56 AM
Post #30 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 690
|
In reply to: In reply to: why a double specifically over a single? I climb on an 8, but work at a concert venue, and when we rig shows, we'll send stuff up on a single pretty frequently... I mean... the knot isnt gonna come out. A single bowline actually does have a serious flaw that can cause it to fail in climbing applications, though it would not fail in the rigging applications you are talking about. When the load is through the knot, the single bowline is a very strong knot, however when the load is across the knot, the tail can get sucked right into and through the knot, causing failure. Pardon the crude diagram I made: http://gallery.consumerreview.com/...s/single_bowline.jpg In your use in rigging, the load would always be in the proper direction. But in climbing, if you were to fall and the loop of the single, unbacked up bowline were to catch on anything, the knot could completely unravel. Or if you were to clip into an anchor through the loop of knot on your harness, this too could cause the single, unbacked up bowline to unravel. The double bowline, the bowline with a yosemite finish or the bowline with a fisherman's backup, are all unlikely to unravel when weighted across the loop. GO
OH! you said UNLIKELY - whew! I've been using the B w/ Yosemite finish that I learned from Freedom of the Hills, and showing my sailing students the Y finish just for fun . . . just 'cause it's fun to know a different knot from the one they require in the gym.
If I recall the B w/ Yos. finish is the only other knot recommended in FOTH.
thanks for the diagram - I thought it was clausti's at first, she's been handy with the diagrams elsewhere. Good work!
|
|
|
|
|
yamama
Dec 3, 2004, 1:35 AM
Post #31 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 125
|
First off... yes i we tie the end of the line off... double fishermens.
So what are yall saying the problem with this is? I'm not sure i follow you. We use the double bowline on a bight, so yes it is doubled up, on TR only at the camp. This is how they told us to do it... if anybody thinks it is unsafe i will let them know.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Dec 3, 2004, 1:55 AM
Post #32 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: why a double specifically over a single? I climb on an 8, but work at a concert venue, and when we rig shows, we'll send stuff up on a single pretty frequently... I mean... the knot isnt gonna come out.
Yes, single bowlines can indeed come untied when unweighted. An un-backed up single bowline is not a safe tie-in knot. For that matter, an unbacked up double bowline isn't a safe tie-in knot either. In general, for climbing bowlines need to be backed up or rethreaded.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Dec 3, 2004, 1:57 AM
Post #33 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Like shaky said, redundancy, kinda like the 8 follow through.
No, the double bowline is not redundant compared with the single bowline; it's just somewhat less prone to loosening.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Dec 3, 2004, 2:04 AM
Post #34 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I think I may have posted this before, but I here it is again. I learned to tie this finish for the double bowline from Climbing magazine. I've been climbing on the double bowline for a couple years, and it is a beaut: Clean, slim profile, and easy to untie after a whip. I can cinch it real close to my harness and it never gets in the way. I've been asked by members of the local climbing club what exactly I've done. So I reproduced the article here: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/...batUIUC/bowline.html
That's the finish I use, too. I like the way it keeps the tail pointing down out of the way.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Dec 3, 2004, 2:09 AM
Post #35 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: If you have 40 kids who have to get up the wall in under an hour and 30 min how would u use the bowline, with or without the biner?
I wouldn't use the bowline at all; I'd use a figure 8 on a bight, the more secure knot; and I'd use two reversed and opposed lockers, not just one.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
climbhigh2005
Dec 3, 2004, 2:19 AM
Post #36 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2003
Posts: 1500
|
When I climb on my own, I use a figure eight and tie in directly to my harness... at the climbing wall I help at, we use a figure eight already clipped into a caribiner which isnt the safest, but the easiest... and I teach climbing at camp, and there we have to use a bowline with a caribiner already hooked up to it because its the only ACA credited knot...
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Dec 3, 2004, 2:39 AM
Post #37 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
In reply to: ... and I'd use two reversed and opposed lockers, not just one.
I figured I'd mention that this isn't just some theoretical "redundancy" bullshit concern. According to the UIAA there have been real accidents due to tying in with just a single locker---including just for top rope as is commonly done on artifical walls to facilitate lots of toproping children.
Pitt Shubert wrote:
In reply to: The number of accidents has increased during the last few years, often enough with serious consequences: two cases of paraplegia became known by now. The rope detached itself both from karabiners with screwlocking gates and from karabiners with twist-locking gates.
It is unknown how tightly screwed the 'biners were in these accidents. But even if they were properly attached, it is possible that they can become unlocked by rubbing against the rock, rope, or whatever. You make this more possible if you only loosely screw the gate instead going till it becomes tight.
In reply to: Self-acting opening even by vibration or imbalance of the screw-locking sleeve can be imagined in such a case, also.
To avoid these accidents, they recommend (assuming it is impractical to just tie-in normally) either
In reply to: Using karabiners with a double-acting (twisting and sliding) self locking mechanism (very good, but not liked by many climbers because of the complicated action).
or, as Jay suggests, attaching with an additional locking carabiner with the gates opposed to make it less possible for the rope to come unclipped, even if both gates were to become unscrewed.
|
|
|
|
|
tnchief
Dec 3, 2004, 2:53 AM
Post #38 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2003
Posts: 100
|
In my opinion, safety is the top priority in climbing. If you do something stupid, you die. Most of the climbers I know (present company included) tend to do absentminded things, like tying a knot incorrectly and/or incompletely. So, IMHO, the 8 follow-through is the superior knot simply because it's easy to check visually. On that note, don't let the thing that slips your mind be forgetting to check your knot. Check your partner's knot, too, just in case he forgot.
|
|
|
|
|
yamama
Dec 3, 2004, 3:20 AM
Post #39 of 39
(2952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 125
|
JT512... I use the 8 when i climb i've never used the bowline. The only time i use it is at the camp i work at... only b/c they make us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
