|
ron_burgandy
Dec 3, 2004, 9:20 PM
Post #26 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 186
|
comparing apples and oranges again, they are different aspects of the sport. if you sport climb and want into trad, start on something really easy- think of it as your first day leading sport. You are not going to try your hardest tope rope send, you start several (or more) grades below before so you can get comfortable with the new movements and mentality incorperated in that aspect of the sport
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Dec 3, 2004, 9:47 PM
Post #27 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: trad is almost always crack climbing wile sport is mostly face climbing
Trad is not "almost always crack climbing."
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Dec 3, 2004, 9:52 PM
Post #28 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: In reply to: trad is almost always crack climbing wile sport is mostly face climbing Trad is not "almost always crack climbing." Rob
Yes, come to the Northeast, where you need face and crack skills on most trad routes.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
gunksgoer
Dec 3, 2004, 9:52 PM
Post #29 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 1290
|
Firstly, who really cares about grades and their equivalents between different types of climbing?
but, i think i might be able to provide a decent answer. comparing the yds grades, (thats 5.whatever) sport and trad are both VERY different. i think that a better comparison might be the amount of effort you put into a trad climb, and sport climb. for me, 5.6 sport is a walk up, with about as much energy and concentration put into it as making tea, while with 5.6 trad i need to be on top of the game, and ready to send, although the actual climbing might be about the same (like on a tr)
this is because there are all sorts of extra things u need to worry about while trad climbing, placing gear, extensions, routefinding, belays, etc. plus you have all that extra junk to carry up.
so, my best comparison is (effort wise)
5.8 trad = 5.10+ sport for the mid stuff
and 5.7 sport = 5.3 trad for the easier routes.
(and im guessing 5.10 trad is about the same as 5.12 sport, but since i havnt climbed quite that hard in either catergory, i cant say for sure)
BUT, remember people, grades are very subjective, and dont really matter!!! Go get on a nice route and climb it, 5.2, 5.11, trad, sport, whatever.
-ws
oh, and dont even ask what i think the trad equivalent of 5.3 sport is - ive done harder approaches.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Dec 3, 2004, 9:53 PM
Post #30 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
By my count, a 5.9 sport route is about 2 grades harder than a 5.7 trad route. 8^)
Also in my experience, a 5.9 sport route will generally be steeper than a 5.7 trad route. There are many exceptions to this of course, but there aren't that many vert 5.7s out there.
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Dec 3, 2004, 9:57 PM
Post #31 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: By my count, a 5.9 sport route is about 2 grades harder than a 5.7 trad route. 8^) Also in my experience, a 5.9 sport route will generally be steeper than a 5.7 trad route. There are many exceptions to this of course, but there aren't that many vert 5.7s out there.
Not in Californicata, perhaps. I've been on an overhanging 5.6 that ended in a spooky exposed face. Trad, too.
Course if we want to throw in the old east coast/left coast debate, then it's more like 5.7 trad, east => 5.9 sport, east => 5.11 sport, west. :P
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Dec 3, 2004, 9:58 PM
Post #32 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: By this rationale 5.9 TR is the same as 5.9 free solo. Yeah... physically its the same - its just the mental that gets in the way. No, it is NOT physically the same for 2 reasons. 1. Trad gear is Heavy. Weight = more physical exursion 2. It takes longer to place gear. Length of time = more physical exursion. Josh
Hopefully, you will go back and edit your post before someone points out your obvious gaffe--ooops, I guess I already did. Haha.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
emilb
Dec 3, 2004, 9:58 PM
Post #33 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2004
Posts: 40
|
Depends where you climb. Lots of vertical to overhanging 5.7's in NC or at the Gunks.
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Dec 3, 2004, 10:16 PM
Post #34 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
All I know is that no 5.7 trad climb I've found ever felt like 5.9 sport. :?
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Dec 3, 2004, 11:50 PM
Post #35 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: Course if we want to throw in the old east coast/left coast debate, then it's more like 5.7 trad, east => 5.9 sport, east => 5.11 sport, west. :P Rob
Well, whatever you have to tell yourself to stay psyched on those intimidating 5.7s you've got back there. :P :P
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Dec 4, 2004, 12:15 AM
Post #36 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
5.7 Trad = 5.9 Sport?
For people who climb in both styles frequently, I think spread of 2 decimals is too wide. I've always been able to lead sport one number above what I could lead trad.
I think it might depend on how you start out in climbing. I started leading trad day 1 when I started climbing rock, so I slowly progressed up the numbers in both trad and sport simultaneously, my sport limit always staying 1 level above my trad limit. If you only climb sport for a while, you are going to progress quickly, and then when you try trad at a later date you will probably find that you can't lead nearly as close to your sport lead limit - it will take time to narrow the gap.
|
|
|
|
|
shrubby
Dec 4, 2004, 12:46 AM
Post #37 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 72
|
robmcc wrote:
Course if we want to throw in the old east coast/left coast debate, then it's more like 5.7 trad, east => 5.9 sport, east => 5.11 sport, west.
Rob
that is a bit ridiculous. ive climbed out east and out west. i havent noticed any significant differences between the two regions. i think it more depends on the individual routes and not some mega generalization that the east is two to 4 grades harder than the west.
|
|
|
|
|
rmiller
Dec 4, 2004, 1:26 AM
Post #38 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2002
Posts: 251
|
In reply to: Firstly, who really cares about grades and their equivalents between different types of climbing? but, i think i might be able to provide a decent answer. comparing the yds grades, (thats 5.whatever) sport and trad are both VERY different. i think that a better comparison might be the amount of effort you put into a trad climb, and sport climb. for me, 5.6 sport is a walk up, with about as much energy and concentration put into it as making tea, while with 5.6 trad i need to be on top of the game, and ready to send, although the actual climbing might be about the same (like on a tr) this is because there are all sorts of extra things u need to worry about while trad climbing, placing gear, extensions, routefinding, belays, etc. plus you have all that extra junk to carry up. so, my best comparison is (effort wise) 5.8 trad = 5.10+ sport for the mid stuff and 5.7 sport = 5.3 trad for the easier routes. (and im guessing 5.10 trad is about the same as 5.12 sport, but since i havnt climbed quite that hard in either catergory, i cant say for sure) BUT, remember people, grades are very subjective, and dont really matter!!! Go get on a nice route and climb it, 5.2, 5.11, trad, sport, whatever. -ws oh, and dont even ask what i think the trad equivalent of 5.3 sport is - ive done harder approaches.
Comparing climbs due to amount of effort is inherently flawed because it is too subjective. 5.8 trad = 10+ sport for you, but for me 10+ trad = 10+ sport most of the time. Hell, I have been on 10 trad that required less effort than 9 sport. So, it is just too subjective. I agree with you that comparing the grades between the different styles is too different, and people need to realize that there is no right or wrong answers here and give it up.
|
|
|
|
|
rmiller
Dec 4, 2004, 1:35 AM
Post #39 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2002
Posts: 251
|
Thinking about this further and remembering the stupid 5.9 anytime, anywhere thread, these arguements are stupid as hell and I bet most people can't even back up the shit they are shoveling about grades. Give it up. Spend your energy sending your projects or onsighting that splitter crack. Arguing if 5.9 trad is harder than 5.9 sport, or vice-a-versa, is like arguing if walking on a sidewalk is harder than walking on a dirt road. They are both REALLY FREAKIN EASY!
|
|
|
|
|
diana
Dec 4, 2004, 2:48 AM
Post #40 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 93
|
In reply to: trad is almost always crack climbing wile sport is mostly face climbing
Huh? This reminds me of the doofus who said about a month ago that top roping was a form of aid climbing. What are you talking about? :wtf:
Diana
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Dec 4, 2004, 3:20 AM
Post #41 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
In reply to: In terms of physical strength 5.7 = 5.7 (with the exception of offwidth {shudder}) a sport 5.9 would be (ideally) as hard as a trad 5.9, but the mental aspect is what will make 5.7 feel like .9 - at least that's been my experience in AR, YMMV.
[aside]
No. One 5.7 should feel as difficult as any other if its on TR (which is the sum of the thread). As such, being strong won't make a 5.7 offwidth feel like 5.7. Knowing offwidth technique will make a 5.7 offwidth feel like 5.7. Sport is most definitely easier than trad, even if you compare Indian Creek style trad to sport. However, on well protected terrain, the only thing that will get you is having to move a cam from your harness (or gear sling) to the appropriate spot, then clipping the rope to it. That's why Sphinx Crack in the South Platte is often pinkpointed. It makes it like sport climbing, only with jams.
[/aside]
|
|
|
|
|
claramie
Dec 4, 2004, 4:07 AM
Post #42 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 152
|
I think it depends on the climb. Sometimes 5.9 trad climbs have pro placements from good stances, and in those cases they are no harder than if they were bolted. It makes it tougher when you have to make a placement from some thin crap... especially when you don't choose the right piece the first time.
Then there is also the mental aspect of trad climbing. Although we shouldn't trust bolts completely, pretty much everyone does. When you put in placements though, 100% trust is a bit more rare. Offwidths also tend to humble.
I'm sure I said nothing new, but for what it's worth.
CL
|
|
|
|
|
raingod
Dec 4, 2004, 5:40 AM
Post #43 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 118
|
The real question is "Is it harder to eat an apple or an orange?"
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Dec 4, 2004, 7:13 AM
Post #44 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
In reply to: The real question is "Is it harder to eat an apple or an orange?"
West coast apple or east coast apple?
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Dec 6, 2004, 8:56 PM
Post #45 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: By this rationale 5.9 TR is the same as 5.9 free solo. Yeah... physically its the same - its just the mental that gets in the way. No, it is NOT physically the same for 2 reasons. 1. Trad gear is Heavy. Weight = more physical exursion 2. It takes longer to place gear. Length of time = more physical exursion. Josh Hopefully, you will go back and edit your post before someone points out your obvious gaffe--ooops, I guess I already did. Haha. Curt
Whatever! By that logic everyone should be climbing the same in sport and trad, then. Case closed, end of post.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Dec 6, 2004, 9:03 PM
Post #46 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
Well, they were comparing TR and solo--and you mentioned trad gear. :P
Exursion? Exertion! 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Dec 6, 2004, 9:19 PM
Post #47 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: Well, they were comparing TR and solo--and you mentioned trad gear. :P Exursion? Exertion! 8^)
My bad! I was assuming they were making the reference in relation to sport and trad, but now that I reread it, you are right. As for the spelling...I pride myself on my spelling. Man, is my face red! :oops:
|
|
|
|
|
hape234
Dec 7, 2004, 9:19 AM
Post #48 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 12
|
depends on a lot of factors i reakon.
overhanging will definately take more out of a trad climber with his rack, whilst a face climb could mean that you dont feel the weight as much or at all really.
you could place trad pro every metre, meaning your obsessive compulsive and wasting time and energy, or you could trust your placements and make huge runouts.
and lastly, you could be able to place pro real quick and efficiently or stuff around for 10 minutes scratching your head thinking theres sweet FA for placements.
whilst you could say that trad climbs are generally harder to tick than sport, you cant make comparisons tables. depends on the climber and the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
ein_berliner
Dec 7, 2004, 11:13 AM
Post #49 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 21
|
This has been addressed a lot, I'd say it's pretty simple understand that it is harder to climb trad than sport. What that exact difference in level is is harder to determine. One idea is about a 2 grade increase for a trad route, but it all depends on which you do more frequently. When I was climbing a lot I could trad 8's, 9's, fall off of some 9's, and fall a lot on 10's...but you have to be willing to fall on gear. My sport lead wasn't too much higher, but that is most likely because i just didn't sport all that much. If, however I lived near the red or the new or some other area with sport and trad (unlike the gunks where I used to climb a lot) I would probably sport more, thus making my sport grade considerably higher than my trad...and of course that is only a theory, because being higher in sport would probably make me stronger for trad, etc. etc. etc.
Also see this link for a suprisingly similar thread...from the past!
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p?t=30185&highlight=
|
|
|
|
|
nika
Dec 7, 2004, 11:44 AM
Post #50 of 52
(4871 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2003
Posts: 71
|
this kind of comparison is just silly. trad is trad, sport is sport -- they're different. what it ultimately comes down to is experience in the different disciplines. i have hardly any trad experience, and despite not exactly being a hugely experienced sport climber, either, the difference in what i have led between the two is about six grades. however, my father has a huge amount of experience in both, but particularly trad, and the difference in his hardest leads on gear and on bolts is less than one grade. my brother seems to occupy a more middle ground -- he certainly has a good deal of trad experience (more so than most people realize), but he has led about two and a half grades harder on sport, where he is extremely experienced, than on trad. it comes down to what you've been exposed to and spent your time working on.
of course, there are certainly other problems with this comparison as well, that have been rightly pointed out. you're probably not going to be doing too much crack climbing if you spend most of your time sport climbing, so on trad cracks, you will suffer more than on other types of trad. and then there's the whole issue of grades being not-super-consistent from area to area, and often older, pre-sport-era areas are the ones that have the stiffer grades, making comparisons even more difficult.
to summarize, making a comparison like 5.7 trad = 5.ANYTHING sport is a bit too simplistic, and the main factor in this comes down to experience in the two different disciplines.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
