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ontario_guide
Dec 22, 2004, 1:22 AM
Post #26 of 38
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In reply to: I do not know much about outdoor rock climbing, only did this once. I do work as a Wall Climbing instructor (indoors). Our number one rule is "SAFETY". Belaying with one arm or hand does not look "SAFE" to me, I sure would not want that person belaying me. Too many people talk about "What they CAN do," and never talk about "What they SHOUL do." We work with lots of kids, and if parents see a one arm person belaying their kids I guarantee those parents will never allow their kids to come back to that gym. When I teach people to belay, I expect them to get it or they are out. This is not about having fun belaying others, it is about making sure that the climber is SAFE!
I think that you may want to reread the original post. This is not a question of belaying with one hand for fun, the person in question only has the usage of one hand. Besides, no one is talking about belaying for kids on a commercial wall here.
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epic_ed
Dec 22, 2004, 1:27 AM
Post #27 of 38
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However you work it out, props for climbing with one arm. The limits of some people's spirit seem to have no confines.
Ed
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climbersoze
Dec 22, 2004, 5:27 AM
Post #28 of 38
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In reply to: However you work it out, props for climbing with one arm. The limits of some people's spirit seem to have no confines. Ed
Ditto.
-the other Ed
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ptone
Dec 22, 2004, 6:40 AM
Post #29 of 38
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In reply to: If a fall happens, you let go of the prussik and grab for the brake strand coming out of the munter, hoping that the prussik stops the fall but at least trying for a backup belay with the munter. The releasable attachment becomes critical in this case, since it will be necessary to take the tension off the prussik knot in order to loosen it and either lower the leader or continue belaying.
I agree that a munter hitch Is a helpful idea, and the reasons you quoted were good ones, though the same problems still apply with leading etc.
But ' hoping that the prussik stops the fall' (...while stonewalling panic while flailing with one hand for the brake end of a rope which, if the prussik doesn't work will be flipping around crazily because of the munter and any accumulated twist) is not a great way to offer safe clear helpful advice, and offering a handy justification 'at least trying for a back-up belay' won't clean the spreading red from the minds-eye of s/he who doesn't luck out with their hope...
I quoted this only because I believe climbing is so f-ing dangerous already, and if only one of the million+ visitors here is injured or croaks cause of one helpful suggestion that they don't quite understand (like one where hope actually means might not happen...) what a drag.
I agree with the lightness of being thing--to continue to climb with one arm, to feel compelled to return the 'belay favour' and all, that's cool. And to have the guts to ask upfront about one armed belay here--thats cool too.
Just off the top of my head, I think intensive experimentation and practice will be required before belaying lead, and I don't feel comfy open-airing the one possibility that leapt to mind.
And, tho most seem to favour grigri, I think for top rope a tube device (atc, et al) or a munter hitch would be easier for you using a foot (armpit maybe--but check out if it will work safely, not on that crazy new climb you had to buy that 70m rope to tr). For sure until you get practice lowering your climber with a grigri, (backed up maybe, by a second belay or whatever, dep. on height and landing...) holding the lever while backing up with the braking rope end running through that hand. Thing is, it will be really tempting to just trust the lock on the grigri and go without back up. Just remember, a grigri won't lock if there isn't a sudden solid pull...your lowering could get the rope moving fast enough that if your hand slipped off the lever the rope could just continue to accelerate without locking up.
Just imagine seeing your climber decking as you jump out of the way, twenty years later still feeling sick about jumping out of the way, even though it was probably the best thing you could do, at least with a fall above a certain height...
(That's how I gut-test any new action or equipment I'm about to try. Works for me.)
Good luck, glad you stuck with climbing after losing the use of an arm--it is inspiring!
peace,
-p
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slcliffdiver
Dec 22, 2004, 8:18 AM
Post #30 of 38
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First if you're not going with a Gri Gri do yourself a favor and buy a stitch plate without a spring and with holes for a short keeper cord. I know everyone is rolling there eyes now. But now for the trick instead of one biner use two with spines on the same side but gates opposed, something like the symetrical locking D crab by REI. While with one biner the stitch plate has a tendency to lock up this set up feeds easier than any device I've ever used and I'm sure I've used well over twenty over the years maybe a whole lot more. Tube style belay devices bite for nasty gym ropes and the lessened friction feeding just might save you from messing up your shoulder over the long run.
I have no ideas for lead but a couple for top roping (both keep hand on belay side of rope).
First the pull and scootch: Basically belay palms down pull in slack go down to lock of position keeping your fingers wrapped around the line scootch up towards the belay device take in slack and repeat. The down side I don't know how fast you'll be able to take up slack like this. I do a varient of this when the climber is moving slowly. At the moment I don't know if it's just awkward to do this for a climber moving quickly or imposible.
Second: With a classical belay I only use the other hand as a short shelf (index finger extended) to loop the rope over just long enough to slide my hand down. Basically you just need something to loop the rope over for a second. The one very important thing is it has to be such that every single time without exception that you need to lock off quickly you can do it. You should always be able to win the tug of war with whatever you use. You could holding it in your your lips (teeth might not be a good idea), if you don't want nasty gym ropes in your mouth maybe there is something you can hold with your mouth that you could loop it over with or something else you can think of.
As long as you can find something you are happy with as an appropriate shelf I really don't think belaying a top rope will be a problem. I think I've belayed top rope when I had to keep one arm slung and one time I couldn't really use one hand; without too much difficulty (can't stay away for too long). Unfortunately I don't remember exactly what I did either time my memory sucks but I think at one point I've used my lips don't remember if it was one time above or why but I vaugely remember that it worked out okay.
Another thing to experiment with might be were the attachment point is for the belay divice if you make it higher using a full body harness or by adding a chest harness and rigging something you might make the scootch method go a bit faster or make it easier (or harder) to use a munter hitch one handed depending on how it best works for you to belay with a munter. As long as you always have the brake strand under control you'll be okay and I doubt you'll have a problem belaying safely. I think it's just going to be a matter of refining things for speed and comfort.
I just thought of something. I know there are some organizations (Edit: that teach climbing) that work with people that have some physical challenges. I'm guessing someone probably already has the one handed belay down pat already. If I remember the name of the organization I've heard of I'll let you know if you are interested but you may be able to find someone on the web and pump them for info.
One more idea with a gri gri to lower someone you may be able to clip the belay strand through a biner on a leg loop then be able to hold open the lever while still holding on to the rope. May not work well but it might be worth trying.
Good luck and have a blast.
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curt
Dec 22, 2004, 8:24 AM
Post #31 of 38
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In reply to: Well, in combination with a grigri this would be a use for Curt's foot belay... Run the grigri lever and pull slack with your hand and back up the feeding of rope/lowering with your foot.
Aha, so you do approve of my "foot belay" in some circumstances. Haha.
Curt
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jammer
Dec 22, 2004, 2:01 PM
Post #32 of 38
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In reply to: Slightly off tangent.... I would have to say that this is something that climbers should be practicing, as well. Take some of these ideas and try them out - see what works best for you, then practice. *snip* Think of the things that could cause this to become a reality - rockfall, bad rope burn, frostbite, animal bite, broken limb, or even a serious flapper. It's good to know how to get out of a jam. "Plan for the best, but be prepared for the worst" doesn't just mean carry a first aid kit.
When I read ralphf's question, the first thing that pop in my mind was that we all can find ourselves in this predicament, for whatever reasons. I believe, even though I have to admit it have not yet done this, that any climber who finds themselves climbing outside of the well established, crowded sport areas, should know as much as they can about self-rescue and emergency techniques. Both my partner’s life and mine could depend on what I do know and what I do not.
Thank you for the question ralphf, you've opened my eyes again. Now I have something to do while I wait for the warmer weather!
Alan
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cchildre
Dec 22, 2004, 3:26 PM
Post #33 of 38
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Registered: May 5, 2004
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In reply to: In reply to: Uh, what EXACTLY were you thinking of doing with your other hand? Well, that is rather insensitive. Perhaps ralphf does not have another hand, or can not use his other hand for belaying, for whatever reason. Curt
How is it insensitive to question the reason for a one handed belay? I think Moof was just attempting to be funny here. Lets say he has no hand or arm and this question draws attention to that fact. I for one would applaud someone climbing with only one arm. Hell I can't climb with two of them! Are we all becoming oversensitive metrosexuals? Not me! I make fun of everyone insensitive as it might seem, even myself. I bet that one arm guy from the 'Fugitive' would have smiled a lot more had Harrisome Ford joked around with him more.
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epic_ed
Dec 22, 2004, 3:54 PM
Post #34 of 38
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Registered: Jun 17, 2002
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/*SMACK* {Ed slaps cchildre for being obtuse}
Dude -- Moof even retracted his statment after a bit of reflection. He made his comments early in the thread to a person he had never met and made fun of a disability he had no idea how it was caused or how severely it affects this persons life. Kind of tasteless.
I'm blind in one eye. My wife calls me "cyclops" on occasion. If you did that the first time we met, we'd have some problems. Same situation here. I'm about as un-PC as you can get, but you simply don't make fun of a persons disability if you don't know them pretty well. Most decent human beings consider that kind of "fun" to be a little over the line.
"Cyclops" Ed
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cchildre
Dec 22, 2004, 5:44 PM
Post #35 of 38
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In reply to: /*SMACK* {Ed slaps cchildre for being obtuse} Dude -- Moof even retracted his statment after a bit of reflection. He made his comments early in the thread to a person he had never met and made fun of a disability he had no idea how it was caused or how severely it affects this persons life. Kind of tasteless. I'm blind in one eye. My wife calls me "cyclops" on occasion. If you did that the first time we met, we'd have some problems. Same situation here. I'm about as un-PC as you can get, but you simply don't make fun of a persons disability if you don't know them pretty well. Most decent human beings consider that kind of "fun" to be a little over the line. "Cyclops" Ed
I think Moof was making a joke about sexual self gratification while on belay. Not a joke about him missing a hand. My buddy jokes all the time about how well he can type with one hand, and I never ask to use his computer :)
I should qualify my statement, that my fun poking is almost always directed at someone I know personally, who is fully empowered to do the same to me. The point I tried to convey was that a simple question, whatever it might imply, evoked calls of insensitivy because the original poster might be diabled. Will this question remind Ralphf of his disablitly and send him into a spiral of despair? My uncle shares your visual ability. He got really pissed trying to catch a frizbee after his accident, having no depth perception, making light of the multiple times he took a disc to the face sort of eased his frustration. Then the hardest I have ever heard him laugh was after I took a disc to the face that laid me out as I was doing my imitation of his catching ability. The bloody lip was worth seeing him laugh his ass off, and broke through his frustration. A little practice and he was catching discs with the best of us in no time. We just need to remember that diabled people do have a sense of humor is all. I know this is a fine line to walk but if I were disabled, my desire would be to get treated like everyone else, in most cases.
My opinion - would be to let Ralph get offended and allow him to call the statement insensitive! As an adult he can defend himself, but for the rest of us able bodied people to get all worked up about how Ralph might be offended, even before he, was a bit reactionary. That is just my opinion, that is worth what you paid for it.
I do happily accept the beating from you, but I am going to have to look up that 'obtuse' word, LMAO! I know I am going to hell for bringing all this up, but the picture I have seen from there, sure it looks hot but they have big walls and spires galore all over, Heaven all they have is clouds and golden cities, unless Jesus has been hiding his secret project crag that he has been trying to keep the Holy Spirit from getting on and taking all the FA's. I am sure that Moses would be a mad climber, his ass went up Mt. Sinani, he must have had mad skills!
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toejam
Dec 22, 2004, 8:32 PM
Post #36 of 38
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Registered: Sep 24, 2002
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I watched a fellow who was missing one arm from shortly below the elbow belay his partner on top-rop. He used a gri-gri, keeping his hand as much as possible in brake position on the rope (except for when moving it up). For lowering he used his forearm stub (for lack of a better word) to compress the cam, while keeping his brake hand on the rope. It seemed reasonably safe for top-roping, wouldnt want to see it for lead belay.
His partner, on the other hand, was scaring me. She routinely let go of her brake hand, counting on the gri-gri being infallible.
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cchildre
Dec 22, 2004, 8:58 PM
Post #37 of 38
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In reply to: His partner, on the other hand, was scaring me. She routinely let go of her brake hand, counting on the gri-gri being infallible. |
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ptone
Dec 23, 2004, 5:40 AM
Post #38 of 38
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I wrote this earlier, but perhaps it bears repeating, cause tho I know there are lots of ways a grigri can fail, but this seemed the most likely here: "Thing is, it will be really tempting to just trust the lock on the grigri and go without back up. Just remember, a grigri won't lock if there isn't a sudden solid pull...your lowering could get the rope moving fast enough that if your hand slipped off the lever the rope could just continue to accelerate without locking up."
I know gyms like to use them cause they are catering to alot of unknown variables and can't watch all, but tell the truth, I'd like to see everyone new started with tube type devices--there's a few out now that are almost self-locking, just a twitch of the rope and it jams right up...when ever I'm at the gym I can see half a dozen people, new and old, trusting the grigri and talking away to someone, not watching their climber and even leaving go of the brake end to drink/what ever. Wrong message, I think. Start with an atc or whatever, get in the habit of paying attention...instead of dropping a bud a few feet or forever cause you're so used to the grigri and you forgot you're using this brand new atc you got for outdoors...
Anyhow, blahrant aside, reason I'm posting back is cause lying down to sleep, I was thinking about your dilema...here's one more thing to think about.
For me leading is what climbing is about. After topropeing for a while, I took the gyms course, jumped on an easier climb that I knew inside out, and suddenly felt what it was to climb. Safe as a nut in a shell, but my stomache whispered wha th'f...I had to conciously loosen my grip etc. And I know how trading off working as belay slave definitely feels like a necessary part of climbing.
Now I am just assuming that you'd already be thinking ahead to that...so on the subject of leading, one thing you might try (practice first, maybe use a second belayer if need be, just topropeing over you to avoid even more rope drag at first...) is a rope-solo device. They are made to self lock like a grigri, but because of the needs of a person climbing solo, they are made with a lot less internal stiction, so it is easier to pull the rope through them. (It is what pooped in last night, but my own device is...modified just for me), but same idea--a self locking device with as much less drag as you can get without sacrificing the locking mech.
It could be a start to lead belay, at least on easier routes--someone earlier mentioned a grigri for lead, but drag problems blah blah...maybe this would make it easier, so your climber could yard out their own slack. Course if theý do that at a hard clip, then miss the clip and drop the rope and cling to rest---you gotta think about being able to yard that back in quick before scccrp! Practice?
play safe
peace
-p
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