Thanks punk, I was wondering about that, traffic and all. It may be tough to get out to Queen. We'll see. Anywhere closer by or on the west side of Phoenix?

Unfortunately, no.

White Tanks is closed? I was unaware, but no great loss. We climbed there once and it was so severely less than worth the gas money and hike in we've never been back.

Please see this from our White Tanks area Representative, Allan Watts, a local attorney/climber.

No action requested from you at this time, but FYI and if you have any thoughts please let me know.

If anyone has information about the climbing death last year in the White Tanks, please forward that to me.

Thanks,
Erik
AMC Land Advocacy Chair

Subj: RE: White Tanks climbing access question 
Date: 1/5/2005 12:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time

Erik,

I finally got a hold of my contact with the Maricopa County Parks and Recreation department, trail planner Andrew Fish.  Andrew told me that the administration of the White Tanks Park has taken a stronger position against climbing since a climber died in the waterfall area in October of 2004.  Andrew said that his understanding was that the climber was an experienced climber, and that his death was the result of his rope breaking.  As a result of that accident, the park administration has decided to prohibit climbing.  It is not clear to me how enthusiastically the park will enforce this new policy.

To enforce this local policy, the park may use an official rule prohibiting hiking off of the established trails.   Andrew told me that going off trail was prohibited only for equestrians and bicyclists until a few years ago when the prohibition was extended to hikers.  This change was in response to the need to rescue people who got lost off trail.  Andrew admitted that the prohibition of hiking off trail conflicts with some other rules, including that hunting is allowed, but only more than 1/4 mile from a trail, and that back country camping is allowed, which is not intended to be done on the trails.  Andrew said that the philosophy of the county is to provide tools to the park administration to allow them to cite people where the staff determines that it is appropriate to deter behavior.  But Andrew said that people are usually not cited for hiking off trail if they are doing so in a responsible manner.  He did not think the rule is intended or used to stop people from hiking up the various canyons in the park.  But people who have been rescued have been ticketed.

The White Tanks Park has a website at http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/white_tank/.  The rules are available online at http://www.maricopa.gov/parks/PDF/ParkRules.pdf.  Rule R-118 prohibits "leaving a designated trail or walkway between trailheads", "operating a bicycle, riding a horse, or hiking, except on trails designated for that use", and "failure to follow any sign that dictates the use or behavior on a trail."  Rule R-103 states that violation of any rule is a class 2 misdemeanor.

Andrew also told me that the county currently has no official policy on climbing, but that he thinks it would be a good idea to have one.  He said that currently, whether climbing is allowed may depend on who is the park Supervisor.  He said the county's biggest concern would be liability.  I tried to dispel this concern.  Andrew envisioned a policy that would require climbing permits, require climbers to sign a waiver, and limit climbing to certain areas.  I mentioned that these things are not required in city parks, such as Camelback, or on federal land, such as in the Superstitions.  A climbing policy would probably apply to other areas administered by the county.  I believe the Santans are another such area.

I also talked to Andrew about how to lobby the county for change in the rules or to implement a climbing policy.  The Board of Supervisors would ultimately approve any changes in the rules, but the bureaucrats would be involved no matter where we started.  Thus, it would probably be best to start with the Park Supervisor, Superintendents, and Director.  He gave me names and contact information for these people.

One option would be to proceed to lobby the county to adopt a policy that would allow climbing.  If we did this, we could try to get them to legalize off-trail hiking, bouldering, canyoneering, and the like.  On the other hand, at present, I do not believe that the park administrators are very enthusiastic about stopping people from doing these things, provided we do them responsibly.  We could just keep doing what we are doing, keep a low profile, and take action only if climbers or responsible off-trail hikers are cited for conducting those activities.

I believe that the water fall area in the White Tanks is a special situation.  I have been climbing around the waterfall since I was a child to get to the creek above, and this is a very important area to me.  But the popular route around the water fall puts climbers directly above people below, putting these people at significant risk that they generally do not comprehend.  In addition, many of the climbing routes by the water fall put people below at risk.  There is a lot of loose rock on the upper parts of these routes.  It might not be fair to the people below to climb on these routes, at least not on weekends or holidays when a lot of people are there.  Further, I can appreciate the need to stop people from scrambling around the water fall using this popular route.  Unfortunately, this is the most direct route to Fall Factor Wall, the biggest climbable wall in the White Tanks that I am aware of.  Also unfortunately, the second best route to Fall Factor Wall, the rock knob trail, has been obliterated and blocked off.  Thus, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to facilitate climbing at many crags in the White Tanks.

Further, there is a route on triangle boulder that goes right over a petroglyph.  Clearly not an appropriate place to climb.  Thus, there appears to be a need to regulate climbing, at least to some degree.

Please let me know if you would like to discuss this situation further or if you think further action would be appropriate.  Also, do you know anything about the climber that was killed in October, or about any climbers being cited or ordered to stop climbing or to not climb?

thanks,  Allan