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healyje
Jan 17, 2005, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: maybe it would be good to separate Crag and Church too!
I'll second that...!
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healyje
Jan 17, 2005, 2:56 AM
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In reply to: if i got to know you at the crag, i would probably bring the subject up but if you let me know you werent interested, that would be the end of it. but i would still be happy to climb with you.
I guess my general question in this sort of discussion is why you would ever feel compelled to bring up the subject at all if we were out climbing...
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godskid5
Jan 17, 2005, 4:31 AM
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i love christ. as a christian, i believe when you die you go to either heaven or hell. we would like to see as many people go to heaven as possible. so therefore, it gets brought up. i will not push anyone, but i need to at least let you know where i stand. if you choose not to listen, or let me know you don't what to hear it, that is your choice and i would respect it. if a friend fell off a cliff and died and i hadnt even tried to talk to him then i would feel horrible.
you climb, if your like any of us here you love it. you think about it alot and cant wait to get back to it. now do you just keep that love to yourself, or do you talk about it with others? do you only talk about it with other climbers, or with anyone who will listen? you go to work, do you ever talk about climbing with your coworkers? family? anyone who will listen? its kind of like that. its just what i do. its my love, my passion. if you dont' share my passion thats ok.
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cgranite
Jan 17, 2005, 4:58 AM
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In reply to: i love christ. as a christian, i believe when you die you go to either heaven or hell. we would like to see as many people go to heaven as possible. so therefore, it gets brought up. i will not push anyone, but i need to at least let you know where i stand. if you choose not to listen, or let me know you don't what to hear it, that is your choice and i would respect it. if a friend fell off a cliff and died and i hadnt even tried to talk to him then i would feel horrible. you climb, if your like any of us here you love it. you think about it alot and cant wait to get back to it. now do you just keep that love to yourself, or do you talk about it with others? do you only talk about it with other climbers, or with anyone who will listen? you go to work, do you ever talk about climbing with your coworkers? family? anyone who will listen? its kind of like that. its just what i do. its my love, my passion. if you dont' share my passion thats ok.
I share your passion,...probably because I'm a very charring person. It never ceases to amaze me how people become so angry against Christians who love even those who hate them.
You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture.
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jemco
Jan 17, 2005, 10:46 AM
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I met some prosteletizing climbers a few years back in yosemite and while they weren't pushy, they made sure christ came up (and not in the often heard--christ that problem is hard) in many conversations. I say live and let live, but don't tell me i'm going to hell if i don't join up.
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healyje
Jan 17, 2005, 12:37 PM
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In reply to: . It never ceases to amaze me how people become so angry against Christians who love even those who hate them. You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture.
Yes, it's always in the bigger picture alright, like a several thousand year history of torture, murder, genocide, and the odd coincidence that Jesus and/or God always turns up on both sides of every war. Crusades, inquistions, genocide of aboriginal cultures. In the case of the experience of my wife's and most other tribes in the America's, missionaries with smallpox were at the vanguard of [premeditated] cultural and physical genocide. And hell, it's still going on to today all around the world too with Bush and the other christian neocons on their current adventerously dangerous crusades.
And in historical perspective, I personally find it (religion) an insulting and devisive tool used principally to divide, subjugate, and pit societies against one another. I'd be way more impressed with god's ability to bring people together if I could open the Hood River phone book and find one religion/church listed instead 77 variations on a sub-theme (christianity) so weak it's adherents can't even agree on it.
If anything, when I look out at our future the most dangerous thing threatening our us that I see is fundamentalism in all forms - muslim and christian alike. As far as I'm concerned, the influence of you and your suburban brethren is only vaguely less dangerous to the world in the long run than that of a Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bomber. It's already begat one of the most dangerous presidencies we've ever seen.
Aside from that I have no problem climbing with you so long as you don't bring it up...
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napoleon_in_rags
Jan 18, 2005, 2:12 AM
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The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was a Baptist Minister. Though he was a strong believing christian, he took ideas from other religious leaders such as Mahatma Ghandi and other religious texts such as the Diamond Sutra. At the height of his influence, he was the spiritual leader of a nationwide movement that included Jews, Catholics, Anglicans, Agnostics, and Atheists.
Christianity, like all religions, has a bloody history. It has been used as a justification for unspeakable acts. But it also, at times, lives up to it's ideals.
I don't believe the world would be a less bloody place if we were all atheists.
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cgranite
Jan 18, 2005, 5:28 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: . It never ceases to amaze me how people become so angry against Christians who love even those who hate them. You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture. Yes, it's always in the bigger picture alright, like a several thousand year history of torture, murder, genocide, and the odd coincidence that Jesus and/or God always turns up on both sides of every war. Crusades, inquistions, genocide of aboriginal cultures. In the case of the experience of my wife's and most other tribes in the America's, missionaries with smallpox were at the vanguard of [premeditated] cultural and physical genocide. And hell, it's still going on to today all around the world too with Bush and the other christian neocons on their current adventerously dangerous crusades. And in historical perspective, I personally find it (religion) an insulting and devisive tool used principally to divide, subjugate, and pit societies against one another. I'd be way more impressed with god's ability to bring people together if I could open the Hood River phone book and find one religion/church listed instead 77 variations on a sub-theme (christianity) so weak it's adherents can't even agree on it. If anything, when I look out at our future the most dangerous thing threatening our us that I see is fundamentalism in all forms - muslim and christian alike. As far as I'm concerned, the influence of you and your suburban brethren is only vaguely less dangerous to the world in the long run than that of a Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bomber. It's already begat one of the most dangerous presidencies we've ever seen. Aside from that I have no problem climbing with you so long as you don't bring it up...
Don’t fix your eyes on past events based on people who claimed Christ, but gave into the flesh and worldly things. Jesus’ teachings are passive and I follow his teachings. How shallow is it to believe that a mentally ill serial killer is a Christian because he kills in the name of Christ.
The same situation goes on and on through history, where a person picks up a bible and likes SOME of what it says and live by that. Do not look upon those as followers of Christ.
There are followers of the un-compromised word of God,…like myself. No adding, No subtracting, and No spin. People created religions not God. True Christianity is a Faith walk with Christ, Not a Religion.
And it says in the Book that there will never be peace on this earth.
I do not go around preaching so I'm sure I wouldn't offend you. I instead befriend non-believers and live by example. I share about the Lord when my friends wish to hear.
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godskid5
Jan 18, 2005, 6:00 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: . It never ceases to amaze me how people become so angry against Christians who love even those who hate them. You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture. Yes, it's always in the bigger picture alright, like a several thousand year history of torture, murder, genocide, and the odd coincidence that Jesus and/or God always turns up on both sides of every war. Crusades, inquistions, genocide of aboriginal cultures. In the case of the experience of my wife's and most other tribes in the America's, missionaries with smallpox were at the vanguard of [premeditated] cultural and physical genocide. And hell, it's still going on to today all around the world too with Bush and the other christian neocons on their current adventerously dangerous crusades. And in historical perspective, I personally find it (religion) an insulting and devisive tool used principally to divide, subjugate, and pit societies against one another. I'd be way more impressed with god's ability to bring people together if I could open the Hood River phone book and find one religion/church listed instead 77 variations on a sub-theme (christianity) so weak it's adherents can't even agree on it. If anything, when I look out at our future the most dangerous thing threatening our us that I see is fundamentalism in all forms - muslim and christian alike. As far as I'm concerned, the influence of you and your suburban brethren is only vaguely less dangerous to the world in the long run than that of a Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bomber. It's already begat one of the most dangerous presidencies we've ever seen. Aside from that I have no problem climbing with you so long as you don't bring it up... Don’t fix your eyes on past events based on people who claimed Christ, but gave into the flesh and worldly things. Jesus’ teachings are passive and I follow his teachings. How shallow is it to believe that a mentally ill serial killer is a Christian because he kills in the name of Christ. The same situation goes on and on through history, where a person picks up a bible and likes SOME of what it says and live by that. Do not look upon those as followers of Christ. There are followers of the un-compromised word of God,…like myself. No adding, No subtracting, and No spin. People created religions not God. True Christianity is a Faith walk with Christ, Not a Religion. And it says in the Book that there will never be peace on this earth. I do not go around preaching so I'm sure I wouldn't offend you. I instead befriend non-believers and live by example. I share about the Lord when my friends wish to hear.
you and i would get along great.
its sad to say, but i know many people who are turned off by christians, and away from god. not because they don't believe the bible, or in god, but because of people who claim to be christians. more people are anti christians because of "christians". a true christian is NOT a religous person. a true christian (as mentioned above) is a follower of christ. Christ loved all people. when he was on earth, who did he hang out with? the priests? the holy people? no, he hung out with fishermen, taxcollectors (who were sinners), prostitutes, leppers, and all the other people that the HOLY ones would not even look at twice. Jesus loved all people and treated them all equally. As a follower of Christ, I believe we are all sinners. i am no better than anyone else, beliver or not. i will love all, and treat all equally. a freind of mine is a devout atheist (if atheists are devout), another good friend of mine thinks that he always needs to let me know why i shouldn't belive in god at every chance he gets. he knows where i stand and i leave it at that. if he ever wants to talk more, then i will, but i will not push him. even though he does it to me.
if someone chooses to not like me or climb with me because of my beliefs, then that is too bad. i wont stop climbing with someone because of theres, unless they try to push it on me!! which is why i wont be pushing on any one else.
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healyje
Jan 18, 2005, 7:34 AM
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In reply to: i wont stop climbing with someone because of theres, unless they try to push it on me!! which is why i wont be pushing on any one else.
Well, so long as we can agree to no proselytizing of our beliefs and stick to the business at hand, then there should be no problem at all climbing together...
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bucephalus
Jan 19, 2005, 12:51 PM
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I don't have a problem with Christ or God, just his fan club.
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happyfra
Jan 19, 2005, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: i love christ. as a christian, i believe when you die you go to either heaven or hell. we would like to see as many people go to heaven as possible.
Do you REALLY believe it? Is it just that simple? Heaven or hell? That's it? And, please, tell me: is it based on what? Is there a minimum amount of faith that one must have? Maybe it depends on good will? Maybe on actions? On intentions, results?...
ELD=f(faith, good actions, good motivations, good luck...)
where EDF := Eternal Life Destination?
Do you really believe something like that?
Guys... what kind of god could design a world like this...
I think most of the people who don't like christians ("who love them so much...") are simply offended by the absurdity of this vision of the world.
At least, I am.
If god exists, i think he wouldn't like that vision either... :twisted:
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erisspirit
Jan 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
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In reply to: I share your passion,...probably because I'm a very charring person. It never ceases to amaze me how people become so angry against Christians who love even those who hate them. You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture.
Funny... I can't even count the number of times I have been called a heathen and told I am going straight to hell... and I am Catholic. Sometimes I'm not even in a religous debate when a christian dams me to hell. I was under the impression that catholicism was a christian demonination and not the church of satan.
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godskid5
Jan 20, 2005, 4:00 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I share your passion,...probably because I'm a very charring person. It never ceases to amaze me how people become so angry against Christians who love even those who hate them. You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture. Funny... I can't even count the number of times I have been called a heathen and told I am going straight to hell... and I am Catholic. Sometimes I'm not even in a religous debate when a christian dams me to hell. I was under the impression that catholicism was a christian demonination and not the church of satan.
yes, ive heard it too. at the church i grew up in. not a nice place to be. people have taken religion and skewed into some legalistic crud. jesus says, plain and simple "love the lord your god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul. and love your neighbor as yourself." he does not say to tell your neighbor he is a bad person and is going to hell. he says love him, inspite of what he may be doing wrong. the bible also says we are ALL sinners, so how can they say your sin, or my sin is any worse than theirs? just the fact that think they are better than you goes against what christ said. like i said in an earlier post, lots of churches turn people away from christ for the very things you say happened to you. true followers of christ are not like that. the bible says, "they will know us by our love". that is how you can tell a true christian...
to answer happyfra, yes, i most definately do believe that!! with all my heart!!
yes, there is a "minimum" amount of faith. you must believe christ is the son of god, he came to earth as a man, born of a virgin, died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins, rose again and is now in heaven. its called faith. also works. it says no one can get to heavan by works alone, you must have faith, also that faith without works is dead. not only must you believe in christ, but you must be good to your neighbor. the scripture i quoted above about loving the lord your god...... jesus is summing up the law, what we must do as christians, it all boils down to that one verse (in a nutshell)
god did not design the world to be like this. that is the result of free will. we all chose to make it this way. our choices over time have caused all this crud. what would be the point if we were all robots? he wants us to serve him and love him because we want to, not because we have to.
if you are offended because of my beliefs, then i am sorry. not because of what i believe, but because you are offended by it. you dont believe in god, that doesnt offend me at all. if i dont push it on you, or try to force you into it, why are you offended?
sorry about going on and on, not meaning to give a sermon here. but i was asked, so i answered. :lol:
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tangboy
Jan 25, 2005, 3:56 PM
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hmmmm interesting topic... nice to hear peopls opinions and so far people haven't bashed (at least too harshly) someone elses beliefs (yes i saw a few of this and that but it wasn't too bad). I am a Christian, by birth and personal acceptance. do i preach when i climb? nopers, do i come up to someone while their climbing and say "do you know Jesus etc etc" no not really, i believe in showing Christ by my actions. if a chance in a conversation arrises, sure i'll toss in a question or comment about Christ, but i just believe in presenting my love for Christ through actions. thats what i say, take it or leave it, we all have our opionions and beliefs, harrah to everyone who has posted!
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nthusiastj
Jan 25, 2005, 4:02 PM
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Do they ascend the problems like Jesus did into heaven?
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angry
Jan 25, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: As a Christian, I'm stoked to hear about such an organization. I didn't even know it existed. As for saying that Christians send weak problems,...that's pretty lame. Jesus powered me two days ago during my trip in J-Tree. I on sighted a V9 and did The Nicole Problem V8. I have been thanking the Lord ever since because it wasn't me alone on the rock. Also when I was sketched out on a .10b R with only gear. The teachings of Christ are good and pure; His power outweighs evil.
You onsighted V9 and got sketched on a 10b?! Maybe you should have slung that bible you carried up the climb. If I was going to heaven I've have a killer lead head, I don't get you saved folks.
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j_ung
Jan 25, 2005, 4:32 PM
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Well, as an atheist, I for one will watch out for SRCFC members from now on. And if I come across any of them, I'll be sure to stop by for a free breakfast. You learn something new everyday. :wink:
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bandycoot
Jan 25, 2005, 4:38 PM
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In reply to: You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture.
So if I'm in Israel then Judism is the "bigger picture" because it is in every area of life? Interesting logic. Different God for different countries?
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abalch
Jan 25, 2005, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: Funny... I can't even count the number of times I have been called a heathen and told I am going straight to hell... and I am Catholic. Sometimes I'm not even in a religous debate when a christian dams me to hell. I was under the impression that catholicism was a christian demonination and not the church of satan.
As a fellow Catholic, let me try to tactfully correct you on a small point. Catholicism is not a denomination, because it is the original and Universal Church--the meaning of catholic is "universal church". Denominations take away from The Church what they liked, but chose to ignore things they felt weren't for them. So, if other christians are in denominations, it could be said that Catholics are the nomination.
Now, do not get me wrong in this. Nowhere am I saying that any of these followers of various denominations are going to hell. What I am saying is that the founders of those faith denominations chose to part from the Catholic Church at some point in history, so they chose through there own free will to ignore some teachings of the Christ. There is scriptural evidence that we are essentially graded on the curve, and so a believer growing up learning christianity from their parents, pastors, and other members of their church community can not be blamed for not knowing the full deposiit of the faith. Now, if they come into The Church, join it, live it, and then decide to leave, they are knowingly rejecting some or all of Christianity as we know it to be. An interesting saying I have heard is that "the door to hell is locked from the inside", meaning that all those you go to hell go there through their choice to reject God through sin.
It is a common theme among Fudamentalists to try to portray the Catholic Church as the "Whore of Bablylon", which is where you get a lot of people trying to say that if you are Catholic you have a place reserved for you in Hell. It comes out of an interpretation of parts of Revelation, so as to try to bend it to mean it is talking about The Church, when in fact it is not. There are many good books out there on how to deal with this and other claims from Fundamentalists, unfortunately, I am at work, and can't remember the names off the top of my head.
I think an important thing for all who claim to be followers of Christ should remember is "judge not, lest ye be judged".
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keinangst
Jan 25, 2005, 4:51 PM
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If I could make a climbing analogy, I would liken witnessing to this:
You walk up to the crag and see a 6-year-old halfway up an 11b, while his parents engage in oblivious conversation 10 feet away.
Wouldn't instinct be to say something? Now, theoretically, that kid could be the world's best climber warming up on a cakewalk. But let's say that you KNOW that there is a slopey, gravely topout and he is absolutely guranteed to fall. You'd offer some help, maybe a rope or some beta, but if he insisted against it, you would feel awful knowing he would learn the hard way.
To me, that is how we Christians see many people. Our intentions are good, and we're not trying to force you to do things a certain way. We're justing warning against a danger that is not obvious from most vantage points.
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j_ung
Jan 25, 2005, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: If I could make a climbing analogy, I would liken witnessing to this: You walk up to the crag and see a 6-year-old halfway up an 11b, while his parents engage in oblivious conversation 10 feet away. Wouldn't instinct be to say something? Now, theoretically, that kid could be the world's best climber warming up on a cakewalk. But let's say that you KNOW that there is a slopey, gravely topout and he is absolutely guranteed to fall. You'd offer some help, maybe a rope or some beta, but if he insisted against it, you would feel awful knowing he would learn the hard way. To me, that is how we Christians see many people. Our intentions are good, and we're not trying to force you to do things a certain way. We're justing warning against a danger that is not obvious from most vantage points.
The difference being that the slopey, gravelly top out is an observable fact. Let's get this straight, you BELIEVE that there is a slopey, gravelly top out to life. You do not KNOW it to be true. If you knew it as a fact, then you would have no use for faith.
Edit: I don't mean to disparage you in any way, shape or form and I appreciate your sentiment, but extend your analogy... If I'm the six year old, I've heard the slopey, gravelly warning a thousand times already. I've also heard from other sources that it slabs out and gets juggy. I prefer to try for the onsight.
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j_ung
Jan 25, 2005, 5:01 PM
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I don't mean to disparage you in any way, shape or form and I appreciate your sentiment, but extend your analogy... If I'm the six year old, I've heard the slopey, gravelly warning a thousand times already. I've also heard from other sources that it slabs out and gets juggy. I prefer to try for the onsight.
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abalch
Jan 25, 2005, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You will find Christianity in every area of life because it is the bigger picture. So if I'm in Israel then Judism is the "bigger picture" because it is in every area of life? Interesting logic. Different God for different countries?
Not a different God for a different country, when you boil it down. Now, it is true that Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah that they had been waiting for. But, what we call God the Father, they simply call God, if they call him directly by name.
While the Jewish faith looks at Christianity and sees a lot of people that they feel have been led slightly astray, and they don't believe that the Messiah has came the first time yet. we look at Jews as still God's chosen people, but also that they have not yet came to see that belief in Jesus as Messiah is the completion of Judaism, not a strange sect of Judaism.
I think that if more people were to learn about the Jewish roots of Christianity, which by the way is roughly the first half of the Bible, the Old Testament, then it would clear up some of the conflicts and disaggreements not only between Jew and Christian, but between Protestant and Catholic, and maybe even between Muslim and Christian, though I don't know one way or another on that subject, not having much knowledge of the Muslim faith. It is fairly obvious that a more open minded discussions of our similarities, not our differences in faith would foster a healthier, more peaceful world.
With that said, May the peace of God be with each and every one of you. And, if that offends you, ignore it. I will continue to wish that, though.
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jtt
Jan 25, 2005, 5:28 PM
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Great posts GodsKid. Just the mention of Christianity, brings about many different responses from people, so it is important to remember that the beautiful part of Christianity is not Christians, but Christ.
Also beautiful are the mountains He created. We can all enjoy those.
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