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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 3:52 PM
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A good friend of mine was climbing Spaceshot in Zion last week and had a complete failure of a Yates Adjustable Daisy chain.
Here are the details as I know them;
He was starting up the bolt ladder pitch after short fixing.
He was on the hook move after doing a couple of moves on bolts.
The hook blew and he fell the FULL length of his Adj. daisy onto a bolt.
When he hit the end of the Adjustable Daisy chain(ADC) the webbing BROKE and he decked onto the ledge.
The Webbing broke right at the buckle. He had been using this daisy for Approximatly 1 year and stated that it didn't have any visible damage or fraying prior to the failure.
Approximately 1 month prior to this fall he had taken another daisy fall but wasn't sure if it was the same daisy or not. That time he actually fell onto an INVERTED CAMHOOK which HELD A STATIC DAISY FALL!!! But that's another story.
That's what I know so far, I'm hoping to check it out next week sometime.
Another member of this site was with him and hopefully has some more info to share.
I am trying to get my buddy to send it in to Yates so they can look at what went wrong.
So the moral is...be careful out there kids!! Don't trust that gear to much.
josh
P.S.
On a side note they did finish the route in a very respectable time!!
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Deleted
Dec 12, 2003, 4:06 PM
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thanks a lot, josh, you're really creeping me out with this one. i use a metolius adjustable daisy (thanks, tracyroach!) on one side and a bd full-length on the other.
the metolius design -- i'm uncertain how it differs from yates' -- used to concern me because of the way the slack end of the webbing was attached to the loda-bearing strand using a measly wire slider. i was of the mind that if the senario you described ever happened to me, the end of the webbing would zip throught the buckle assembly and cast me into the hereafter.
being a firm believer that most gear requires purpose modification, i've since removed the wire slider and sinply tied a bulky knot in the end.
good job on the heads-up. and kudos to yer pal for getting right back on the horse what throwed 'im!
see you at the ice fest.
geo
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 4:08 PM
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George,
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Metolious aren't as strong as the Yates...
See you in Ouray!!
josh
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euroford
Dec 12, 2003, 4:13 PM
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A good reminder that your daisy chains are part of your "moving system" and not your "safety system". i would really like to know what some of those static loads end up being!
i think i remeber yates selling a daisy setup that includes a screamer. i might consider adding one between my donut and my daisy's next time i get on something big.
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csoles
Dec 12, 2003, 4:16 PM
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Factor 2 static fall onto a single strand of used webbing bent at an angle...what's the surprise?
PS I'd bet it was a Leeper and not a Pika cam hook.
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dirko
Dec 12, 2003, 4:19 PM
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Man, mad props to that cam hook.
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traddad
Dec 12, 2003, 4:31 PM
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I just bought a set of these so this scares me.
I went to a "Fall Factor Calculator" and put in some iffy numbers (weight=165, length of fall 4.5 feet (daisy length) rope out (daisy length) 4.5 feet, static fall) and I got a fall factor of 2 and a KN of 16+. The yates daisy is only rated between 1500 and 2000 lbs, depending on your source of info. 16 KN = ~3500 lbs so he could of very well exceeded the rating for the daisy.
I am NOT an engineer and I am probably wrong.
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therealbovine
Dec 12, 2003, 4:53 PM
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The first thing that comes to mind is the Ancra buckle that Yates uses on the Adjustable Daisy. The buckle has tiny, but sharp teeth that cam into the webbing, holding it in place as adjusted. Seems like it might be possible in this scenario that the fall created enough force to cut the webbing at the cam on the Ancra buckle. Almost a "mega-pinch" happened @ the cam.
Must have been some crazy slack in the rope for your buddy to have hit that ledge!
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 5:08 PM
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That's why we climb with dynamic ropes as our main form of protection instead of daisys. The primary purpose of a daisy chain is not to catch falls. Falling the full length of a daisy on to a bolt will generate massive force that static webbing isn't designed to absorb. Euroford has it right. Daisys are "part of your moving system and not your safety system".
It sounds like the only thing that went very wrong is the fact that the rope didn't stop his fall at the bolt right below his feet. The rope should have been clipped in to that bolt. If he was multiple bolts past the ledge how did he fall all the way back to ledge? Was he not clipping any of the bolts that he had moved past? Something sounds amiss in this story.
In response to the poster above....Yes, the Yates Adjustable Daisy webbing is rated stronger than the Metolious version. I don't know the exact specs. Some digging on this site should turn up the specifics.
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rogueclimber
Dec 12, 2003, 5:44 PM
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Years back I took a daisy fall on a brand new #5 BD stopper blowing the actual wire in two and leaving the stopper in place.
At the time I was very surprised the wire blew. :shock:
Now that I know a bit more about the forces involved in these short falls, It doesn't come as such a shock.
Oh, and I still use spectra daisys.
Cheers!
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karlbaba
Dec 12, 2003, 5:59 PM
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Yup, a factor 2 fall on a static strap could break the webbing. The fact that it might have been the second severe stress on the webbing doesn't help.
It doesn't seem intuitive that such short falls could generate those kind of forces but it's true. It can hurt your body just as easily.
I talked to a guy who took a severe daisy fall in Zion. A few days later he felt like crap and went to the doctor. Turns out he had internal bleeding and will need surgery.
It's probably a good idea to uses those screamer daisies when they is a chance you'll crash back down to the last piece. At least unclip the previous daisy after you've finished testing and are stepping up. You can alway still back-clean the last piece after moving up a step or two with no daisy but still clipped through the piece with a dynamic rope
Peace
Karl
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 6:10 PM
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Ok let me clarify a couple of things.
Csoles- Yes it was a Leeper and it was bent all to hell but it held the fall!
Bovine- I was thinking that the teeth on the buckle may have had something to do with it breaking as well...I'll be interested to inspect it. And yes he had alot of slack- he was short fixing and did not clip any of the bolts.
Dsafanda- Nothing was amiss. He was using a technique known as short fixing. He did not clip any of the bolts because he was moving fast and saving his gear. What he was doing is nothing new and while it may not be the safest thing it is fairly common practice. Ever "crack jumar" or leap frog cams? Big runout's....but you move fast.
Speed has it's risk's and this is one of them....
Euroford-In terms of moving system's and safety systems. Yes there is a difference, However when you are moving fast they boundaries of the 2 get blurred.
What happened in this situation was a worst case scenario with the ADC, fortunatly it only ended with a few bumps and bruise's.
Rogueclimber- Another very good friend of mine was on Zion SAR for awhile, They were doing some rescue training with one of the big rescue companies. They did a fall factor test on daisies to highlight the effects of fall factors.
They did the same drop test on everyone- it was the spectre daisies that continually FAILED!! The nylon version's did not. The reason is, Nylon has more give then spectre- ie it's more dynamic. Needless to say they all put their spectre daisies out of service after that...
josh
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russwalling
Dec 12, 2003, 6:17 PM
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###The hook blew and he fell the FULL length of his Adj. daisy onto a bolt.
When he hit the end of the Adjustable Daisy chain(ADC) the webbing BROKE and he decked onto the ledge. ###
No suprise there. All you ADJ daisy guys should read this post a few times. By design, these daisies are made for moving in a system and are actually quite weak. Yep.... WEAK. Taking falls onto any daisy is sketch, but on to an ADC borders on disaster.
###The Webbing broke right at the buckle.###
Of course. At the buckle there is a lot going on.... for openers the webbing is forced into a very tight radius turn onto a small radius edge. Trouble.... There is a cam with teeth that presses harder as more force is applied. Trouble... There is the webbing itself, used for a year, where even fresh would be the weakest link in the chain.
###He had been using this daisy for Approximatly 1 year and stated that it didn't have any visible damage or fraying prior to the failure.###
Impossible. But it does not really matter anyway. ADC's are a convenience, and you pay for this convenience by giving up some safety. Sometimes a lot of safety.
adios!
Russ
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: Impossible. But it does not really matter anyway. ADC's are a convenience, and you pay for this convenience by giving up some safety. Sometimes a lot of safety. adios! Russ
I couldn't agree more...I think I'll look into getting the screamer version for speed'o stuff.
Hey Russ- why don't you guys use stndard 1" tubular webbing in these ADC's?
I'm just assuming that the wear is the problem, considering the softer nylon used for the Tubular. But wouldn't this make the ADC alittle stronger?
josh
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csoles
Dec 12, 2003, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: Csoles- Yes it was a Leeper and it was bent all to hell but it held the fall!
Thought so, the Pika would have snapped.
As for spectra webbing, there are many types and you really can't lump them all together. That's a common problem with many tests that renders them meaningless. More accuracy in reporting is required.
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slabbyd
Dec 12, 2003, 6:43 PM
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That bolt ladder is at least 50' long, sounds like your friend got pretty damn lucky. In fact I'd say it sounds like he screwed up.
Perfect example of why again and again the general concensus is to NOT USE CAM HOOKS ON TRADE ROUTES IN ZION. My gumby-ass friend made it up that pitch just fine with offset nuts, cams and tri-cams. His time was not stellar, certainly nothing to brag about, but he did not further destroy an already blown out pitch. In trying to go fast it sounds like your friend did. Thanks!
While short-fixing certainly speeds things it, it takes all of a few biners (and no more time) to clip every other bolt. Sounds like a good thing to do when your fall isn't clean (i.e. decking on a ledge). More often than not I see people skipping lots of clips on C1 bolt ladders in an attempt to? look and act cool is my guess, while adding significant risk to an already risky activity.
Girrr-Humphhh There's my diatribe for the day....
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russwalling
Dec 12, 2003, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Impossible. But it does not really matter anyway. ADC's are a convenience, and you pay for this convenience by giving up some safety. Sometimes a lot of safety. adios! Russ I couldn't agree more...I think I'll look into getting the screamer version for speed'o stuff. Hey Russ- why don't you guys use stndard 1" tubular webbing in these ADC's? I'm just assuming that the wear is the problem, considering the softer nylon used for the Tubular. But wouldn't this make the ADC alittle stronger? josh
We have used the tubular stuff before.... fatal flaw is one side will wear out much faster than the other side, and being tubular, leave you with some pretty sketchy looking webbing. I seems the "aider style" webbing gives a more even wear pattern and is overall thicker than the tube style. Maybe some tubular test models are in order..... I'll mull it over (unless Clyde has some quicky data for me????)
adios,
Russ
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: That bolt ladder is at least 50' long, sounds like your friend got pretty damn lucky. In fact I'd say it sounds like he screwed up. Perfect example of why again and again the general concensus is to NOT USE CAM HOOKS ON TRADE ROUTES IN ZION. My gumby-ass friend made it up that pitch just fine with offset nuts, cams and tri-cams. His time was not stellar, certainly nothing to brag about, but he did not further destroy an already blown out pitch. In trying to go fast it sounds like your friend did. Thanks! While short-fixing certainly speeds things it, it takes all of a few biners (and no more time) to clip every other bolt. Sounds like a good thing to do when your fall isn't clean (i.e. decking on a ledge). More often than not I see people skipping lots of clips on C1 bolt ladders in an attempt to? look and act cool is my guess, while adding significant risk to an already risky activity. Girrr-Humphhh There's my diatribe for the day....
YOU DUMB F**K!!!
My friend wasn't using a cam hook!! The Cam hook incident happened at Lumpy ridge- which is Granite.
The only reason I mentioned it was because the static fall he took that day may have had something to do with the failure on this fall.
He was using a standard hook on a BIG edge about 2 bolts up the ladder and maybe 10 ft off the HUGE ledge...MOST people use this hook to get through the blank section between bolts. And in fact he had used this hook at least 3 times before. He is also very Anti-cam hooks in sandstone.
Further more this guy is an EXTREMLY good friend of mine who YOU DON'T KNOW! He is also very humble and an excellent climber. You're lucky there is a computer between us right now.
How come everyone but you understood what was going on?
josh
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flamer
Dec 12, 2003, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: We have used the tubular stuff before.... fatal flaw is one side will wear out much faster than the other side, and being tubular, leave you with some pretty sketchy looking webbing. I seems the "aider style" webbing gives a more even wear pattern and is overall thicker than the tube style. Maybe some tubular test models are in order..... I'll mull it over (unless Clyde has some quicky data for me????) adios, Russ
Could The "aider style" webbing be made into tubular? What about Spectra? Maybe some form of it that is a little more dynamic? Spectra is very wear resistant right?
Just brain storming....
josh
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: Nothing was amiss. He was using a technique known as short fixing. He did not clip any of the bolts because he was moving fast
Correct me if I'm wring but short fixing by nature does NOT mean you don't clip pro. I understand this guy was trying to speed things up even more by not clipping any pro but it's not correct in my opinion to suggest this is part of the definition of shortfixing. Shortfixing simply means you're taking off solo at the beginning of the next pitch before your partner arrives to put you on belay. If there's no pro between you and your partner when he finally puts you on belay that's your own choice but its not what defines shortfixing.
I'm not criticizing the guy. It sounds like he's more experienced climber than myself. However, I still think it might be fair based on everything that's being said to second guess the technique of running it way out while relying on nothing other than an adjustable daisy to catch you in the event of a fall. I bet your friend might now agree?
This is a good kick in the a$$ for a lot of us. Thanks for posting flamer.
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bandycoot
Dec 12, 2003, 7:15 PM
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I don't get the big deal. They aren't made for static falls. I would EXPECT them to fail under such conditions. As long as the climbing system is sound (the rope/anchor is still working) then I have no problem on Adjustable Daisys. Climbing is dangerous, and falls happen.
Josh
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iamthewallress
Dec 12, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Confession: In the interest of speeding things up, I've been achored many times only by adjustable daisies, sometimes whilst belaying a parnter who was running it out pretty far off the belay.
Josh, thanks for the wake up call. I've had the buckle totally fail on my adjustable aider after 7 pitches. I'm not going to quit using them, but I'll be more mindful of when the rope gets clipped.
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alpinestylist
Dec 12, 2003, 7:21 PM
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Yeeeehaaaw!!!
Schmackfest 101
So just to start off, I was with Flamer's bro, Marc. We have climbed together for 10 years now. To understate it, Marc is SOLID.
Another really good friend broke a ADC on Lost in America's 1st pitch and decked too, same scenario. I quite using them in 96.
To the details for you punks. Marc comes to bolt ladder. Clips one bolt, next move looks like hook, or mantle. Marc hooks, right as I arrive at belay. We had been soloing to this point, so I now hand Marc the live end of the cord. He was either tied in REAL long (one hook move wouldn't cause him to blink under normal circumstances) or on a clove right to the anchor. He starts to tie in so I can put him on, half way through tying in the whole edge just blows, he wasn't bouncing, shifting or anything.
WIthout knowing what happend Marc is flying, kicks me in the head, hits the ledge and keeps going. I grab all strands I can and arrest his fall bare handed (nooch, love you man). marc stops, dusts off, isn't fucked up stands back up and sends the shit out of space shot.
Don't think marc would have clipped rope to first bolt, not because we are super hard or anything, just doing are thing. Marc would have been fine if the daisy didn't explode.
I repeat I have a few friends that have done this, buyer beware.
Space shot was fun, wish I had free shoes.
Cheers,
Brent
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dsafanda
Dec 12, 2003, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: In the interest of speeding things up, I've been achored many times only by adjustable daisies,
That's exactly what I was thinking Mel. For the sake of convenience I use them all the time as my only tie in point when not on lead. Think about walking around on a ledge tethered with your adjustabe daisy to a fixed line or as my attatchment to an anchor while rapping multiple stations. One slip of the foot would produce the kind of short fall on to the daisy that we'e talkign about. I'll continue to use them with piece of mind while leading but this thread suggest I should seriously reconsider how I use them at other times.
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alpinestylist
Dec 12, 2003, 7:25 PM
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PS- to all you fools that say you shouldn't fall on your daisy or to only rely on the rope I say.....
Keep aiding hoss! So by that rationale you probably shouldn't bounce test with them either?
I have taken dozens of daisy falls over the years, Marc's fall probably wasn't full length either, giving him the opportunity to generrate max force.
i'll pipe down with my pipe now
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