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kimgraves
Apr 20, 2005, 3:00 PM
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The third chapter of my ongoing "learning to aid climb" trip report is up. You'll need to page down to get to it.
I have some questions about top stepping and using a fifi, I'd appreciate you guys taking a look at.
Thanks, Kim
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epic_ed
Apr 20, 2005, 3:36 PM
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Cut and pasted from the other thread to keep this in the right spot.
Keep it up, Kim! You'll be ready for a big wall before you know it. As for top stepping -- you already mentioned using Ron O's method was a snap, so I'd rely on that technique rather than messing with the system. Maybe where you're confused is with the use of the fifi while top steppping. If that's the case, then the answer is you don't use it. You can't while top stepping. The fifi allows you to securely rest while looking for the next placement and saves your arms if the pitch is over hung, but you're not going to use it much more than that. Once you reach the point where you've stepped high enough that your fifi is pulling you down, it's no longer of any use.
So how do you stay balanced while going for the upper steps of your aiders? One way is the technique Ron demonstrates. Another is by keeping tension at your waist with an adjustable fifi or adjustable daisey. With either of those doo-dads you can adjust the tension and let out just the right amount of slack to get you to the next step. The key is adjusting the tension so that it is pulling you down and keeping you in balance without preventing you from reaching your next placement or pulling your pants off. You'll crush your kidneys for a while before learning the micro-adjustments that work for you.
Keep at it!
Ed
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skinner
Apr 26, 2005, 2:56 AM
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I don't know, but it seems from reading your TR, that you really aren't having a problem with top-stepping, rather it's jugging that you need to work on. Just a guess here.. but If you increase the angle of the rock you are working on, your top-stepping will take on a whole new meaning :shock: , and your jugging will magically improve. Jugging in low angle rock sucks at the best of times.
Not to change the top-stepping topic, but with regards to jugging, I personally I don't care for the leap-frog style jugging (or whatever Pete calls it) I like to take the biggest stride I can each time. With only one foot in my aider, I can lift my leg until my knee is touching my nose. With both feet, the best I can do is get into a semi-sitting position, which equates to a whole bunch of short (and choppy) steps to accomplish what would normally be a few strides for me.
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ricardol
Apr 26, 2005, 4:11 PM
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RE: Top Stepping ..
in less than vertical ground, you can top step without using a fifi .. if its low angle enough, just lean into the rock .. otherwise find something to grab onto ..
.. in vertical ground .. use the fifi to keep you tensioned ..
.. in overhanging .. good luck ..
=====
RE: frog ascending ..
.. i am not sure which one of the two methods is faster .. but the frog method sure is easy .. it takes very little effort (and you have comfortable resting positions) .. when you jug a free hanging rope with the frog ..
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texplorer
Apr 26, 2005, 11:07 PM
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Some good posts on the topstep but I have to disagree with the raising your feet so high.
On less than vertical terrain I put one foot in either aider and kinda do a stairclimber motion up the wall. It actually goes pretty fast and the less knee bend you take the less you'll be using your arms and even tiring out your legs.
On vertical to overhanging terrain I use the frog method and do get my feet up. Then by using your core you can rock up and slide the top ascender up without even bending your arms much.
Topstep is only something I do on less than vertical stuff unless I have to. It is faster for most people to stay in the second step in a more relaxed position for steeper sections.
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guanoboy
Apr 27, 2005, 5:57 PM
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I don't know if this really addresses your question, but I will use my fifi in an 'upside-down' position when i have to make a long reach on steep terrain. I find this to be extremely useful, but strenuous. To better explain - if i need to get my hips above my piece on steep to overhanging ground I will grab the fifi (which is tied into my belay loop) point the hook up and slide it into the top beaner or the piece of gear as i extend my legs to stand high. This requires constant pressure on the fifi because any slack in your harness will allow the fifi to drop right out of the beaner. In this position your feet are pulling down on the gear in your aiders and your hips are pulling up on the gear via the fifi.
This is as close as i think you can get to top-stepping on steep terrain.
have fun
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kimgraves
Apr 29, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Hi Gang,
Thanks for all your comments. Here’s my confusion: The first pitch I did was low enough grade and angle that I could just use hand holds to get up to the top step and then balance there. The second chapter, in the gym, was on a vertical wall and roof. Here too I was able to get up to the top step by holding onto hand holds and then balance on the vertical wall using Olevsky’s method. Of course that didn’t work on the overhang because my feet weren’t on the wall and so I had nothing to lever against. In addition the supervisor on duty at the gym said that I shouldn’t be using handholds to move up. That I should “pretend” that this was 5.17 and there weren’t any handholds. In that case I should be using a fifi on the daisy chain and top biner. Using this method I couldn’t get beyond the third step or up into the Olevsky position because I couldn’t keep my balance beyond the third step. This was the same problem I had with Chapter 3. I could have used hand holds to move up, but thought I should practice with the “pretend 5.17.”
Unfortunately, I lent my “Clean Walls” DVD to someone who hasn’t returned it and who is not answering my e-mail. Hint! Hint! So I can’t review how Olevsky got to the top step without loosing his balance.
After reading Ed’s comments, I went and looked up PTPP’s comments on top stepping. I think I have the idea about creating a tension between your feet and adjustable daisy to stay in balance in the top step. But I still have a question about how to get up there? Do you let the daisy out gradually as you stand up? Won’t you be all bent over against the wall as you do this? How do you keep your balance in that position? And finally why use both an adjustable daisy and an adjustable fifi?
We’re heading back up this weekend to see if we can figure this out. Any help would be appreciated.
Best, Kim
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texplorer
Apr 29, 2005, 7:18 PM
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Yes, on a roof there is no such thing as top-stepping.
On vert or overhanging terrain I also seldom need to go above the 2nd step either. But, if you really need to I do use the features on the rock and the tension from the daisy below.
Adj Daisy and adj fifi? No, just go with an adjustable daisy.
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glockaroo
Apr 29, 2005, 8:21 PM
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Well put, pmyche. Good stuff.
Kim: I read your report. Sounds like you are learning aid the right way by working out the details of the systems on a small cliff. You are realizing some things that typically only come through experience, like setting your pro with the cleaner's job in mind. Good show.
Here's a couple of suggestions that came to mind while reading your post:
1. Even if you're only cleanaiding, always bring a small hammer for cleaning purposes. Used w/ a nut tool it will save you from having to leave nuts & tricams behind, especially if they were loaded in a fall. Just a $9.99 unit from Home Depot with a 4mm cord leash is fine.
2. Try an adjustable daisy from Yates or Metolius. The pros & cons of each have been discussed a lot here. With the daisy extended & clipped to an aider, reach up & clip the pro (w/ the daisy & aider, not the rope). Pull some slack out of the daisy as you climb up the aiders. If you topstep, feed slack out of the daisy as needed. Very simple when you try it.
3. With a traditional pocketed daisy, try this: instead of a fifi, use a keylock biner like the ones from Petzl. Have this biner mounted to the front of your harness on the belay loop or a dedicated hand-tied webbing loop. Reach up & clip the pro w/ the daisy & aider (on 1 biner). As you climb the aiders clip the waist-mounted keylock biner into the pockets as you would hook them with a fifi. The keylock biner is a lot more secure when you move your weight around, and the keylock design is almost as easy to get into the daisy pockets as a fifi.
4. Some of the speed only comes with time & experience, mostly because you get to the point that you can look at the rock and be 95% sure about what pro to use the first time. Based on your past hard-earned experience you have an idea of what will or won't hold. Knowing what gear to try first & having the confidence to just get on with it are big keys to fast aiding.
5. You will be really glad to have done all this ahead of time when you get onto a real bigwall. As you methodically and confidently handle what needs to be done up there, you will be glad that you have the basics down pat.
One of the best concepts from the Middendorf/Long book is that if you've mastered everything that you CAN plan for, you'll be able to focus on dealing with the things that you CANNOT plan for.
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iamthewallress
Apr 29, 2005, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: An advanced leader will rig with cleaning efficiency in mind as much as protecting his lead--definitely an acquired art on scary ground....
That's right near the top of my list of things that define a great partner!
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climbhigher
Apr 30, 2005, 2:19 AM
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Well said Phycme. Just one thing. I find out when i am in my second steps my waist is right at the biner i am weighting and Its easy to be fifi into that biner. So, I spend most of my time in my second steps on vertical to overhanging rock. If its less then vertical, and slabbly, I will go right into my top steps without using my fifi and without tension. Another thing is, I use Yates adjustable daisey. But, i wont actually use them unless its really steep. IF its vertical or less, I will just climb my aiders to my second steps and fifi in. This is not to hard once u get the balance dialed.
Another good thing to do that saves tons of time is......Once you have bounced tested a piece and decided its good, stay on it and climb up the aiders. Don't move back to the other piece.
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stymingersfink
May 1, 2005, 7:34 PM
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word up, y'all. Looks like some good info so far, though I have a few things to add.
As far as adjustable daiseys/fifis n crap go, I will avoid the ones involving webbing (ask pee'd-on over at ST what he thinks of webbing). I've used both the webbing and the accessory cord style, and both have their issues, but for me the kong-bonatti resting fifi is the way to go.
It calls for 7mm cord, though I use 6mm for easier pull-through. Mammut makes the best accessory cord to use with these, as they are smoother and seem to tangle/twist less than accessory cord by other manufacturers. A 7.5' length is just about right for my use. Bring an extra length of accessory cord for the big stone and replace it when necessary.
This adjustable fifi will not extend while there is weight on it, so you must get the length right *before* you step above your second step. Sucked in tight is about right for step 2, but a little more length is needed to extend your reach from above this point.
Why get into the *TOP* step, you ask? Well, last time it was to reach past a blown head, saving me the time necessary to replace it when the next one was a mere 6 infuriating inches above it. :x
I also like to use an adjustable fifi for weight transfers to questionable pieces. I can stand comfortably in my third step, extend my fifi to the next hook or head, and take up the slack. Now, sitting into my harness, I can slowly transfer weight to the hook/head/mank and give it a good pull/light bounce if I feel brave enough.
This allows me to keep my weight centered over my good piece if the next should blow, reducing the feeling that I'm going to overbalance and take a daisy fall. Once I'm reasonably confident the piece will hold, I can then swing gently under the piece and get my feet situated in the aiders.
On dicey hooks it allows me to move my weight higher in my aiders in a smooth manner, reducing the tendency of a hook to skate.
On the down side, it's another thing dangling around your knees hooking on everything you don't want it to. I'll extend the fifi, hook my gear loop, then gather up the excess cord and throw in an 8 on a bight to tension it there.
Top Stepping? Try to stay out of the top as much as possible, but I think it's a goot skill to be comfortable with. That said, I regularly step into my 2nd step.
Sty
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kimgraves
May 1, 2005, 8:27 PM
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Thanks Gang for all the info. Unfortunately flu, coupled with a low-grade fever, has kept me grounded this weekend. Not to mention it’s been pretty wet on and off all day. Hopefully we’ll get to chapter 4 of the TR next weekend. Matt got some more cams and I have a couple of adjustable daisies to play with.
Best, Kim
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ricardol
May 2, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Top stepping on overhanging terrain is a PITA .. and most of the time you'd be better off just going off your 2nd or 3rd step.
.. on vertical terrain .. top stepping is not that bad .. if you use both an adj, fifi and an adj. daisy, the daisy wont pull as tight as the fifi, hence why they are both useful .. not only that, you may still be fified onto your bottom piece, and need to bring yourself tight on the new piece .. (hence the adj daisy is superuseful on overhanging terrain).
To get really tight on the adj. fifi as you top step vertical terrain, get up to your 2nd step .. you'll be tight on your fifi. -- then let our a few inches of slack .. and step up while keeping tension on the fifi hook. ..
.. if you do this right, then the fifi will have just enough tightness to pull your pants down. .. if you do it wrong, you wont be able to stand up .. experience will tell you how many inches to let out of slack.
depending on which big wall is your first target .. top stepping may not be that important .. of the 2 walls i've done, i haven't done too much mandatory top stepping .. (zodiac, and tangerine trip)
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