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Passing a knot on rappel
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Perihelion


Sep 6, 2010, 4:11 AM
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Passing a knot on rappel
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I had a situation come up last week, in which we needed to do a double-rope rap. The ropes were different lengths. I’d guess one at about 50m and the other at something over 60m. After a vertical drop, my feet were on the ground and I had about 2’ left on one rope, and a pile of rope on the ground for the other rope. I was very close to running out of rope in mid-drop; not good. It would have been nice to equalize the rope lengths. That got me to thinking: I don’t believe I’ve seen a description of how to pass a knot while rappeling.

Passing a knot on rap isn't something I expect to do very often. Ideally, never. But just in case, I want to have a method in my bag of tricks. I’m pretty sure I know how to do it, but I thought I’d see what the “community” has to say. Here’s how I propose to pass a knot, and this is how I'll practice it unless someone comes up with a better suggestion:

1. Rap down to a point where the knot is just below the device. Throw a couple of wraps around a leg and over the foot to hold position.
2. Use a short rescue loop to put a prussik close above the rap device, around both ropes. Clip a double sling to the prussik loop with a ‘biner.
3. Unweight the rap device by standing in the sling attached to the prussik loop. Drop the leg wraps.
4. Pull up a few feet of rope below the knot, then clove hitch both ropes to a locker on the harness, leaving a loop down to the knees. This is the safety backup.
5. Detach the rap device from the ropes.
6. Reset the device on the ropes, below the knot.
7. Double check that everything is rigged correctly, ‘biners locked, and etc.
8. Undo the backup clove hitches; throw a couple of wraps of rope around a leg to hold position.
9. Unweight the prussik sling (transfer weight to the rap device), and then remove the prussik loop and sling from the ropes.
10. Drop the leg wraps, and then continue with rap.

I think the main thing to watch closely is making sure that the prussik doesn't move out of reach when weight is transferred back to the rap device. I'd try to keep the prussik, device, and knot all close together so that this problem doesn't develop.

So... sound about right?


theguy


Sep 6, 2010, 6:34 AM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Check out Pass the Pitons Pete, though pics are no longer there.

Or pick up a copy of Climbing Self-Rescue: Improvising Solutions for Serious Situations and practice that instead, though it doesn't have some of PTPP's slick knot-use, and uses munter mules rather than klemheists/tiblocs and aiders.

Wrapping the rope around your leg as a tie-off is seriously old-school and dodgy: props to you if you survive the practice :)


sbaclimber


Sep 6, 2010, 7:57 AM
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Re: [theguy] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
Wrapping the rope around your leg as a tie-off is seriously old-school and dodgy: props to you if you survive the practice :)
I'll give you old-school, but why dodgy...?


patto


Sep 6, 2010, 8:49 AM
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Re: [theguy] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
Wrapping the rope around your leg as a tie-off is seriously old-school and dodgy: props to you if you survive the practice :)

Apparently using a rope is also seriously old-school but it is a practice I still keep up. Laugh

Leg wraps are excellent are my primary way of going hands free mid rappel. If you have done it you would know how solid it is. It cinches tight around you thigh and wont go anywhere.

If I'm hanging aroung for a while I'll through a quick bight underneath my leg wraps as a backup. But thats largely unnecessary.


jt512


Sep 6, 2010, 8:58 AM
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Re: [theguy] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:

Wrapping the rope around your leg as a tie-off is seriously old-school and dodgy: props to you if you survive the practice :)

Do you ever actually know what you're talking about?

Jay


julio412


Sep 6, 2010, 10:49 AM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Ok, how's this for an idea.
Setup your rappel with the knot/ pull side on the shorter rope at your anchor.
Rappel down to a safe spot: ledge, bolt, fixed gear.
Attached yourself to it.
Un-weigh the ropes
Adjust your rope lengths accordingly( you can disconnect your rappel device to speed things up)
Tension up on your rappel device.
Finish your rappel
Seems simple
Mario


sbaclimber


Sep 6, 2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: [julio412] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Depending on whether or not the rope is running over any rough/sharp rock or edges, there is a much simpler solution available....Tongue
(also works best with a plate/ATC style device, not an 8)


ozoneclimber


Sep 6, 2010, 11:10 AM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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In caving we run into a lot of situations where you have to pass knots, albeit on single ropes. For doubles use two prussiks, one conected to your harness (note: tether attaching to harness should be no more than arms length) and above the knot and rappel device, and one that you can loop around your foot, placed below the knot and rappel device (also connected to your harness for redundancy's sake).

Once you place the prussik above the rap device and knot, wieght it, removing the wieght from the rappel device. Next attach the prussik below the knot/rappel device, make sure you have a sufficient amount of slack to work with. Now detach your rappel device from the rope, and reattach it below the knot, as close as possible. Tie off using an overhand on a bite.

Pull the lower prussik up to a comfortable height that will allow you to work around the rappel device. Stand up and slide the upper prussik down to just above the knot.

Once you sit back down your rappel device is weighted. Remove the upper prussik, remove the lower prussik, untie your overhand on a bite, and... Congratulations, you're on rappel again...


-B


(This post was edited by ozoneclimber on Sep 6, 2010, 11:13 AM)


Partner j_ung


Sep 6, 2010, 1:10 PM
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Re: [ozoneclimber] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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I pre-rig a cordalette with a friction hitch on the rope and a munter mule on my harness at the other end.

1. Rap to the knot and then let the cordalette take my weight.
2. Clip into a back up from the rope below the knot.
3. Switch my rappel device to below the knot and mule it.
4. Untie the mule in the cordalette and rap down it until the device is loaded again.
5. De rig the cordalette, untie the belay-device mule, and then rap on.


Rudmin


Sep 6, 2010, 1:49 PM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Perihelion wrote:
I had a situation come up last week, in which we needed to do a double-rope rap. The ropes were different lengths. I’d guess one at about 50m and the other at something over 60m. After a vertical drop, my feet were on the ground and I had about 2’ left on one rope, and a pile of rope on the ground for the other rope. I was very close to running out of rope in mid-drop; not good. It would have been nice to equalize the rope lengths. That got me to thinking: I don’t believe I’ve seen a description of how to pass a knot while rappeling.

Passing a knot on rap isn't something I expect to do very often. Ideally, never. But just in case, I want to have a method in my bag of tricks. I’m pretty sure I know how to do it, but I thought I’d see what the “community” has to say. Here’s how I propose to pass a knot, and this is how I'll practice it unless someone comes up with a better suggestion:

1. Rap down to a point where the knot is just below the device. Throw a couple of wraps around a leg and over the foot to hold position.
2. Use a short rescue loop to put a prussik close above the rap device, around both ropes. Clip a double sling to the prussik loop with a ‘biner.
3. Unweight the rap device by standing in the sling attached to the prussik loop. Drop the leg wraps.
4. Pull up a few feet of rope below the knot, then clove hitch both ropes to a locker on the harness, leaving a loop down to the knees. This is the safety backup.
5. Detach the rap device from the ropes.
6. Reset the device on the ropes, below the knot.
7. Double check that everything is rigged correctly, ‘biners locked, and etc.
8. Undo the backup clove hitches; throw a couple of wraps of rope around a leg to hold position.
9. Unweight the prussik sling (transfer weight to the rap device), and then remove the prussik loop and sling from the ropes.
10. Drop the leg wraps, and then continue with rap.

I think the main thing to watch closely is making sure that the prussik doesn't move out of reach when weight is transferred back to the rap device. I'd try to keep the prussik, device, and knot all close together so that this problem doesn't develop.

So... sound about right?

I don't think anyone has posted the simplest solution yet: Tie your ropes together on the shorter rope side of the anchor. When you need more rope, lock the short strand and let the long strand slip through.

EDIT: okay so someone has, but if you are worried about sharp edges, just do your equalizing right at the very start of the rappel.


(This post was edited by Rudmin on Sep 6, 2010, 1:51 PM)


sbaclimber


Sep 6, 2010, 2:14 PM
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Re: [Rudmin] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Rudmin wrote:
EDIT: okay so someone has, but if you are worried about sharp edges, just do your equalizing right at the very start of the rappel.
^^ good point


cantbuymefriends


Sep 6, 2010, 3:12 PM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Perihelion wrote:
1. Rap down to a point where the knot is just below the device. Throw a couple of wraps around a leg and over the foot to hold position.
2. Use a short rescue loop to put a prussik close above the rap device, around both ropes. Clip a double sling to the prussik loop with a ‘biner.
3. Unweight the rap device by standing in the sling attached to the prussik loop. Drop the leg wraps.
4. Pull up a few feet of rope below the knot, then clove hitch both ropes to a locker on the harness, leaving a loop down to the knees. This is the safety backup.
5. Detach the rap device from the ropes.
6. Reset the device on the ropes, below the knot.
7. Double check that everything is rigged correctly, ‘biners locked, and etc.
8. Undo the backup clove hitches; throw a couple of wraps of rope around a leg to hold position.
9. Unweight the prussik sling (transfer weight to the rap device), and then remove the prussik loop and sling from the ropes.
10. Drop the leg wraps, and then continue with rap.
You'll be performing step 4-8 one-handed because you need one hand to hold yourself upright while standing in the sling.
I'd use a second prussik to attach the belay loop to the rope after standing up. Otherwise, I'd use what you wrote. Just be sure that the pussik(s) are long enough not to lock against the knot before the weight is transferred back to the belay device.


billl7


Sep 6, 2010, 3:27 PM
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Re: [sbaclimber] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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sbaclimber wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
EDIT: okay so someone has, but if you are worried about sharp edges, just do your equalizing right at the very start of the rappel.
^^ good point
Minor point ... if you are close to the anchor it may be hard to see whether the rope ends even up ten's of meters below.


altelis


Sep 6, 2010, 3:38 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I pre-rig a cordalette with a friction hitch on the rope and a munter mule on my harness at the other end.

1. Rap to the knot and then let the cordalette take my weight.
2. Clip into a back up from the rope below the knot.
3. Switch my rappel device to below the knot and mule it.
4. Untie the mule in the cordalette and rap down it until the device is loaded again.
5. De rig the cordalette, untie the belay-device mule, and then rap on.

The most elegant solution, to be sure!


billl7


Sep 6, 2010, 4:32 PM
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Re: [altelis] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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altelis wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I pre-rig a cordalette with a friction hitch on the rope and a munter mule on my harness at the other end.

1. Rap to the knot and then let the cordalette take my weight.
2. Clip into a back up from the rope below the knot.
3. Switch my rappel device to below the knot and mule it.
4. Untie the mule in the cordalette and rap down it until the device is loaded again.
5. De rig the cordalette, untie the belay-device mule, and then rap on.

The most elegant solution, to be sure!
+1


Perihelion


Sep 6, 2010, 4:49 PM
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Re: [theguy] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:

Or pick up a copy of Climbing Self-Rescue: Improvising Solutions for Serious Situations and practice that instead, though it doesn't have some of PTPP's slick knot-use, and uses munter mules rather than klemheists/tiblocs and aiders.

D'oh! I have that book, and I've read through it - or thought I had - several times, but I brain-farted my way past pg 146-148. Got it. Thanks for the reminder.

In reply to:
Wrapping the rope around your leg as a tie-off is seriously old-school and dodgy: props to you if you survive the practice :)

Huh? Have you tried it?


Perihelion


Sep 6, 2010, 4:50 PM
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Re: [julio412] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Too situation dependent. I want a procedure that works even if I'm hanging in midair.


Perihelion


Sep 6, 2010, 4:55 PM
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Re: [billl7] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
altelis wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I pre-rig a cordalette with a friction hitch on the rope and a munter mule on my harness at the other end.

1. Rap to the knot and then let the cordalette take my weight.
2. Clip into a back up from the rope below the knot.
3. Switch my rappel device to below the knot and mule it.
4. Untie the mule in the cordalette and rap down it until the device is loaded again.
5. De rig the cordalette, untie the belay-device mule, and then rap on.

The most elegant solution, to be sure!
+1

This is, in essence, the same procedure documented in Climbing Self-Rescue, except that they do not suggest pre-rigging the cord.

Next time I'm out and have some time, I'll rig up a test and practice it with my climbing partners.

One practical problem with all of this is, if only one person in the party knows how to execute the procedure, then you might as well forget it because everyone else is going to balk at trying something they've never seen before, on their own, while their life is on the line. The thing I need to do now is round up the Usual Suspects and organize a practice session.


LostinMaine


Sep 6, 2010, 4:57 PM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Perihelion wrote:
The thing I need to do now is round up the Usual Suspects and organize a practice session.

Good luck finding Soze.


Perihelion


Sep 6, 2010, 5:06 PM
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Re: [ozoneclimber] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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ozoneclimber wrote:
In caving we run into a lot of situations where you have to pass knots, albeit on single ropes.

(snip)

-B

I wondered about how cavers handle this situation. I don't know much about caving, other than you rely on single rope technique, but I figured you'd do a rebelay at the knots... but apparently knot. (haha. excuse me for that.)

The rest of your description is basically standard crevasse rescue. I always have a couple of loops and a pre-tied foot prussik on my harness. Never know when you might need to go UP. That is a good point about needing a hand to stabilize, and I'd have discovered that the first time I actually tried to pull this off. The PMMO procedure as described in Self-Rescue and one of the other replies, solves this issue because you are always hanging from the harness and never trying to balance on a sling while also spinning in space.

Thanks for all the replies. This really helped me think through the procedure.

My next question was going to be "What do you do when you are hanging in midair and find that you are two feet from the end of one rope, but there is plenty of rope on the other strand?" You inadvertently helped answer that question.

Next step: Practice.

Thanks again.


Perihelion


Sep 6, 2010, 5:25 PM
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Re: [LostinMaine] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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I was thinking of the other collection of "usual suspects." Casablanca. "Round up the usual suspects and bring them in for questioning." Now I'll have to add "The Usual Suspects" to my netflix list. Wink


billl7


Sep 6, 2010, 5:39 PM
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Re: [Perihelion] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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Perihelion wrote:
One practical problem with all of this is, if only one person in the party knows how to execute the procedure, then you might as well forget it because everyone else is going to balk at trying something they've never seen before, on their own, while their life is on the line. The thing I need to do now is round up the Usual Suspects and organize a practice session.
Practice is primary. On the other hand, just having one person might be enough since it may be practical to ...

* lower your partner first; or
* fix the longer single strand that doesn't have a knot and your partner can rap that first;


sittingduck


Sep 6, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Passing a knot on rappel [In reply to]
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In an emergency, would it be possible to utilize the climbing rope and pass the knot with only a small prusik loop and two carabiners?


Off course, it had to be rigged much tighter in order to reach the clove hitch after the transfer.

One could maybe shave this further down by omitting the top carabiner, and use two half hitches on the climbing rope directly to the prusik?


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