I will be sending an email to bd anf camp inquiring about the "safety" of my neutrino and nano biners

Sigh ..... Why not ask thecurrent sources DIREcTLY instead of relying on older msg board posts ....

Unless RCers "experts" are afraid of the answers .... Or they dont believe that the uiaa, bd an camp are crediblr

Note the BD qc link where most broken biners are given as nose hooked ... Or do we discount the most recent info ...

How about cross loaded strength ... Or do we not thunk cross loading is an issue

How about if you are so sure about the "safety" of a neutrino in an open gate configuration since real world falls never exceed 5kn, you volunteer yourself to take a whipper on one. It should be easy to file the hook portion of the nose off of a neutrino to simulate an open gate. How about it? Put your money where your mouth is since you think our talk is all hogwash and you know better.

Typical rc ... Arguing instead of asking the people who actually test and rate the things .

I climb on my neutrinos every time u place a cam thank you very much ....

Why dont you simply STOP climbing on yours if you are so worried about it ....

Send em to me and ill dispose of them ;)

Or better yet ask bd about it ....

Maybe you can tell me exactly how you climb differently with those "safer" biners ....

You still didnt say if crossloading is a concern =P

I climb on my neutrinos every time u place a cam thank you very much ....

Why dont you simply STOP climbing on yours if you are so worried about it ....

Send em to me and ill dispose of them ;)

Or better yet ask bd about it ....

Maybe you can tell me exactly how you climb differently with those "safer" biners ....

You still didnt say if crossloading is a concern =P

The percentage of the time that a gate opens in a fall as it becomes loaded * the percentage of falls that produce forces that exceed common open gate strengths * number of falls in a persons lifetime = stop talking about this.

I'll agree with every one of you at the cost of making myself look like a wishy-washy pedantic little prick if you please, for the love of all things decent, stop butchering the fuck out of the English language.

Most recently we have brought to the market place the strongest, lightest biner in the world. The Phantom at 26 grams is now the target for others to aim at. We achieved this without compromise on strength either as this biner achieves a stunning 9 kn gate open rating.

…
Wie konnte das passieren?
Man suchte im Kar unterhalb der Seilbahn-
gondel nach den Bruchstücken des Karabi-
ners, fand das größere (mit dem Hauptschen-
kel) und schickte es dem Sicherheitskreis. Die
Ursache ließ sich leicht feststellen: Kein
Material – oder Herstellungsfehler – der Kara-
biner war mit offenem (!) Schnapper belastet
worden. Warum er sich geöffnet hatte (ob-
wohl er nach Angaben des Rettungschefs von
diesem bei der Vorbereitung des Rettungs-
einsatzes geschlossen worden war), konnte im
nachhinein nicht mehr geklärt werden. Mit
offenem Schnapper sinkt die Bruchkraft eines
jeden Karabiners bekannterweise enorm ab.
Doch dies erklärt den Bruch im vorliegenden
Fall noch nicht, denn Karabiner müssen
gemäß den Normen (EN und UIAA) mit
offenem Schnapper noch wenigstens 7 kN (ca.
700 kp) Bruchkraft aufweisen. Der gebrochene
besaß sogar eine Schnapper-offen-Bruchkraft
von 9 kN (ca. 900 kp). Sowohl eine Kraft von
7 kN (ca. 700 kp) und erst recht eine solche
von 9 kN (ca. 900 kp) kann bei einer Belastung
durch Anheben des Körpergewichts wie bei
diesem Zwischenfall nicht auftreten. Dennoch
war der Karabiner gebrochen.
…
Empfehlung
* Karabiner mit einer möglichst hohen
Schnapper-offen-Bruchkraft verwen-
den. Die englische Firma HB bringt jetzt
weltweit den ersten Karabiner mit einer
Schnapper-offen-Bruchkraft von 12 kN
(ca. 1200 kp) auf den Markt (Bild).
* Dort, wo ein Sturz in den Bereich der
Möglichkeit rückt, zwei Expreßschlin-
gen parallel einhängen (wenn es die
Größe der Öse zuläßt). Auf diese Weise
besteht Redundanz: Sollte sich der
Schnapper eines Karabiners aufdrücken
oder sonstwie öffnen und bei Sturzbe-
lastung brechen, kann ein zweiter Kara-
biner die Restbelastung übernehmen.
* Karabiner mit Verschlußsicherung
(Schraub-, Schiebe- oder Twistlockver-
schluß) verwenden. Die Handhabung ist
allerdings umständlich, so daß diese
Karabiner von der Mehrzahl der Kletterer
nicht verwendet werden.
…
Im Klettersport
Die geringe Schnapper-offen-Bruchkraft von
Karabinern gilt natürlich genauso für eine
Belastung beim Klettern bzw. Stürzen. Bei
offenem Schnapper reicht ein eineinhalb
Meter hoher Sturz (Knie auf Hakenhöhe),
und der Karabiner kann zu Bruch gehen.
Dabei muß sich der Schnapper gar nicht ein-
mal völlig aufdrücken. In der Regel reichen
wenige Millimeter, und die kraftschlüssige Ver-
bindung zwischen Schnapper und Karabiner-
nase ist gelöst.
Der Sicherheitskreis bekommt jährlich
eine ganze Reihe solcher Karabiner zugesandt,
meist mit der Mitteilung, daß der Einsender
sehr erstaunt ist über die „geringe Festigkeit,
obwohl doch normgeprüft ...“. Die Normen
(EN und UIAA) verlangen nur (siehe oben)
eine Bruchkraft bei offenem Schnapper von
7 kN (ca. 700 kp). Mehr war leider in den
Normengremien nicht durchzusetzen.

Rough translation of the piece, focus on bold parts:
A biner broke, when lifting someone out of a aerial cableway (rescue operation).
The biner broke in open gate configuration, even though it was a locker, and even though it was rated to 9kN, something that was not deemed possible, when lifting just body wheight!
…
Suggestion:
Buy biners with an open gate strength as high as possible (they specifically mention a HB model that has 12kN).
Or you use two QDs or lockers in situations where a fall is likely.
…
with an open gate a fall of 1.5m (bolt at knee height) can be enough to break a biner.
…
The UIAA demands only 7kN, a higher value was unfortunately not implemented.

qwert

the explanation is in the diagrams

very possibly nose loading as described by BD ... which is NOT normal open gate loading ...

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/dr8k28.png[/IMG]

nose hook scenario according to BD

[image]http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/uploads/black-diamond/images/nosehook_noBG.jpg[/image]

even retarded gumbies get that

failed biner ...

[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/dd183d.png[/IMG]

nose hook failure according to bd

[image]http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/uploads/black-diamond/images/DSCN2622.jpg[/image]

OG failure according to BD

[image]http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/uploads/black-diamond/images/DSCN2623.jpg[/image]


http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...sehooked-carabiners/

Carabiners are incredibly strong—they meet a minimum test of 20 kN (4496 lbf or 2039 kg) when properly loaded on their major axis with the gate closed. In an open gate scenario, carabiners still test to a minimum of 7 kN (1574 lbf or 714 kg). But when you test a nose-hooked carabiner, it can fail at less than 10% of its rated closed gate strength—that’s less than 2 kN (500 lbf or 227 kg), a load that can be easily generated in even the smallest of climbing falls or even just a light bounce test.

....

The photos below show typical failure locations for one style of carabiner tested in four different configurations. As you can see, a nose-hooked carabiner will most often break at the top of the spine, while open and closed gate failures typically occur at the bottom of the spine, and minor axis failures almost always occur at the gate.

are you SURE the "open gate" failures arent nose hook failures ... note the failure at ~2kn ... i SERIOUSLY DOUBT a 10 kn OG biner would help all that much when compared to a 7 kn og rated biner ... but hey we can always ask BD ....

I am fully aware that "nose hooking" or other "non standart cases" can significantly lower the strength.
In fact that is the whole point of the discussion (that you fail to realize)!
The more strength you have to begin with, the more you have left, should something go wrong. Thats why we dont use keychain biners, even though many should be strong enough for most falls …

And to answer the question you sure are going to ask:
No, i do not believe that 7kN biners are death traps, and yes, i do in fact own and use quite a few of those 7kN ultralight things (e.g. camp nano23, Climbing Technology 'name forgotten', Kong Helium, …) as well as some oldschool 7kN biners, but i use them in situations where i deem the added risk neglible, and try to have my "workhorses" in the high strength category.

qwert

On sale, 3.99 biner

http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html

3.35, 3.65 dogbones

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html

that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby.

im sure neither petzl, dmm, camp or BD are out to kill me

Also from the table, the highest 'typical' load on the runner is 7.5 kN. However, test work done in the UK in the 1980s to determine the necessary gate open strength of karabiners attached to running belays, showed that karabiners with a 6 kN gate open strength could fairly easily be broken, using dynamic belaying in simple geometry, whereas 7 kN karabiners could not. That work suggests that, in practice, 7.0 kN can be taken as the minimum strength requirement to survive the typical force generated in dynamic belaying.

So your argument is that most open gate failures are nose-hooked failures? That's a pretty weak reach from my perspective. Personally I would be stunned to learn that nose-hook failures accounted for more than a single digit percentage of open gate failures.

A biner that gives you a few kn more margin will survive more of those situations that exceed 7kn. That is worth considering in your carabiner purchase. That is all that was stated, but you seem to have taken it as a personal insult.