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knudenoggin
Jan 8, 2011, 6:45 AM
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As JT512 notes, the labels (or the images) are reversed.
I'll add that there's little basis for either "Dutch" or "Cowboy"
--some Yank's or <?> notion of something to call it.
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Actually, in kernmantle ropes, these variations have essentially the same strength/security. BITD when we used hawser laid goldline ropes for climbing, the outer bowline (on right) was indeed more prone to loosening due to the Z-twist of the rope. An S-twist rope would work better with the outer bowline.
But, no, HERE there IS a notable difference in security
--IN RING-LOADING (aka "cross-loading") : pulling the eye
open makes this knot a "bend"/end-2-end joiner, and the
righthand knot above ("Cowboy") makes a Lapp Bend,
which is secure; the common bowline makes a, well,
botched Lapp bend, and can quickly spill.
IMO, presenting the bowline from this *side* is one of the
problems with understanding the knot : ALL crossings
should be reversed vis-a-vis over/under --the mainline
should be shown crossing UNDER the collar bight around
it, and so on. (It's easy to understand the course of the
parts in the bight (U-part), and best thus to show more
clearly the *hitching* loop that the mainline makes around
that part.)
Moreover, the way to quickly tie a bowline when tying in
should proceed with (for righthander) taking the tail in the
right hand out under the extended-away-from-body mainline,
then quickly turning the right hand back over-around the
mainline, casting it into a loop, with the tail (& right hand)
passed through this loop in the proper orientation/direction;
then do the "rabbit around the tree" (already out of the hole)
completion.
With the "cowboy" version, I esp. like the extension in which
the tail is taken (after completing the basic knot) around the
mainline's eye-leg part in the same way it collared the mainline,
tucking now back "out" of the "hole". By holding this eye leg
relatively snug, the knot resists loosening. And, for leaders,
the tail will be pointing downwards, gravity-assisted in staying
put, in that.
The remark about the twist in rope is interesting, and I've not
played around with that. It might arise in part from torsion in
some tying methods (as much as handedness/twist, per se)?
In any case, it would be possible to tie the knot as a mirror
image to avoid that problem.
*kN*
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phang_nga
Jan 8, 2011, 7:15 AM
Post #52 of 66
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sp115 wrote: phang_nga wrote: knudenoggin wrote: I'm quite surprised to see someone say that their bowlines without any further securing have never loosened; I find many ropes so firm-stiff-smooth/slick that the bowline never gets comfortably set, without some help Oh, I always tie a back-up knot in the tag end. Even with that though, I"ve personally never had a bowline come loose. Maybe I take extra care in setting each bend in the knot or something, I don't know. I have no reason to doubt those who have had problems with their knots becoming loose. It would be interesting if we were side-by-side tying the knot to see if there was any (minor?) difference in the process. There is at least one common variation of the simple bowline. I don't concern myself with difference because I tie in with the rethreaded version, but if you don't, it may be something you should consider. "Standard" on left "Dutch" or "Cowboy" on right. (Edit to correct labels)
Is there supposed to be any benefit to one vs the other? I can't really see how it would make much of a difference. I could be wrong. I'm still backin' it up either way.
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knudenoggin
Jan 8, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #53 of 66
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Your question was answered immediately above.
*kN*
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sp115
Jan 8, 2011, 4:22 PM
Post #54 of 66
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knudenoggin wrote: Your question was answered immediately above. *kN*
Excellent post! I understand the cross-loading comments, but I'll need a piece of rope to better understand your description regarding tying it. I'm also curious as to whether the cross loading concerns apply to the re-threaded variation?
As for the names, I had remembered hearing it called "Dutch", I did a quick search and it turned up (along with "cowboy"), so I used that name. I'm not sure if you were joking about "Yank", but since I happen to be a Yank, maybe it actually is a colloquial term used for it?
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Deano33
Jan 8, 2011, 5:11 PM
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This is my bowline with a finish knot.
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Deano33
Jan 8, 2011, 5:13 PM
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Deano33 wrote: This is my bowline with a finish knot.
Well dam what happened to the pic I attached? O well
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moose_droppings
Jan 8, 2011, 6:03 PM
Post #57 of 66
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Deano33 wrote: Deano33 wrote: This is my bowline with a finish knot. Well dam what happened to the pic I attached? O well
It's knot there.
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sp115
Jan 8, 2011, 10:05 PM
Post #58 of 66
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Deano33 wrote: Deano33 wrote: This is my bowline with a finish knot. Well dam what happened to the pic I attached? O well
Post the link?
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Deano33
Jan 8, 2011, 10:40 PM
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(This post was edited by Deano33 on Jan 8, 2011, 10:41 PM)
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wiki
Jan 9, 2011, 12:54 AM
Post #60 of 66
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sp115 wrote: wiki wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? I tie in with a 3/4 fishermans which is very similar. Isn't that a slip knot?
No it isn't. I also think I have the wrong name for it as I can't find any pics of it on the net.
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sp115
Jan 9, 2011, 4:56 AM
Post #61 of 66
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Deano33 wrote: [IMG]http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae76/rti1300/CIMG0192.jpg[/IMG]
Not enough redundancy in that knot for me. I also don't like the finishing knot being on the bight. But that's just my opinion.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Jan 9, 2011, 4:57 AM)
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knudenoggin
Jan 9, 2011, 6:31 AM
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wiki wrote: sp115 wrote: wiki wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? I tie in with a 3/4 fishermans which is very similar. Isn't that a slip knot? No it isn't. I also think I have the wrong name for it as I can't find any pics of it on the net.
1) The "3/4 Fisherman's" is nothing like the Trident
--it's a pull-together knot, the T's interlocking parts.
2) The "3/4 Fish." is a supposed easier to untie reduction of
a Grapevine (Dbl.Fish.) (and so is misnamed --it's MORE than
a (single) "Fisherman's), but about 3/4 of a Grapevine),
where the mainline is tied in an overhand knot, then the tail
after being reeved through the harness is brought back through
the overand and tied off with a strangle knot (dbl. overhand,
but not like the tie-off version of it shown by D., which is in
Anchor Bend form; but this alternative looks appealing).
Loaded, the knots pull together (hence my name for this type
of knot). (I should think that this is NOT all so easily untied
after a fall, btw. But, just loaded some 10.x mm with maybe
700#, and untied it.)
3) And so, yeah, you could call it a Slip-knot, tied off with
a Strangle knot (or with an Anchor Bend) of tail around
mainline. (And so', the knot's TIB (Tiable in-the Bight)
--Look, Ma, no ends!)
*kN*
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wiki
Jan 9, 2011, 8:12 PM
Post #63 of 66
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knudenoggin wrote: wiki wrote: sp115 wrote: wiki wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? I tie in with a 3/4 fishermans which is very similar. Isn't that a slip knot? No it isn't. I also think I have the wrong name for it as I can't find any pics of it on the net. 1) The "3/4 Fisherman's" is nothing like the Trident --it's a pull-together knot, the T's interlocking parts. 2) The "3/4 Fish." is a supposed easier to untie reduction of a Grapevine (Dbl.Fish.) (and so is misnamed --it's MORE than a (single) "Fisherman's), but about 3/4 of a Grapevine), where the mainline is tied in an overhand knot, then the tail after being reeved through the harness is brought back through the overand and tied off with a strangle knot (dbl. overhand, but not like the tie-off version of it shown by D., which is in Anchor Bend form; but this alternative looks appealing). Loaded, the knots pull together (hence my name for this type of knot). (I should think that this is NOT all so easily untied after a fall, btw. But, just loaded some 10.x mm with maybe 700#, and untied it.) 3) And so, yeah, you could call it a Slip-knot, tied off with a Strangle knot (or with an Anchor Bend) of tail around mainline. (And so', the knot's TIB (Tiable in-the Bight) --Look, Ma, no ends!) *kN*
Thats the one! except once the tail has gone through the harness and the overhand knot, I tie off as in Deanos picture - A barrel knot. It is a lovely compact knot :-)
Thank youfor your good explanation!
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knudenoggin
Jan 9, 2011, 8:58 PM
Post #64 of 66
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wiki wrote: ... I tie off as in Deanos picture - A barrel knot. It is a lovely compact knot :-)
That's NOT a barrel knot (by any definition --many refer to
an end-2-end joiner aka "Blood knot", btw), but, as I noted,
an Anchor bend (orientation of a double overhand). The knot
often called "Barrel" in kernmantle rope applications is a form
of the double overhand that's symmetric --a strangle knot.
(Deano's form can be dressed into barrelness easily.)
*kN*
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Deano33
Jan 10, 2011, 2:01 AM
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The finishing knot I used is called a yosemite tie off ( according to the literature in front of me)! But this is an old book.
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bowline.jpg
