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Deano33
Jan 3, 2011, 2:34 AM
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Ive been away from the sport for alot of years, in my early 20's I lived and breathed climbing. I just got all the gear back out and been leaning up to get back into it. So i got out an old book ive had for years to touch up on my knots and rigging skills. Its called "ON ROPE". All the years of climbing in a gym and outside it was just standard to tie in with a figure 8. Well reading through the book, when you tie webbing together you use a water know, and when tieing off to an anchor they show pics of using the bowline. But when you tie into your harness most use a figure 8.
Does any one tie in with a bowline and tie off? I like the knot, its simple and quicker to tie. I mean your trusting your life with a few other knots so why use the figure 8 at the harness?
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jt512
Jan 3, 2011, 2:46 AM
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Deano33 wrote: Does any one tie in with a bowline and tie off? I like the knot, its simple and quicker to tie.
I tie in with a double bowline, as do many climbers. I do not know what you mean by "tie off."
Jay
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Deano33
Jan 3, 2011, 3:04 AM
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jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: Does any one tie in with a bowline and tie off? I like the knot, its simple and quicker to tie. I tie in with a double bowline, as do many climbers. I do not know what you mean by "tie off." Jay
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2011, 3:19 AM
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Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: Does any one tie in with a bowline and tie off? I like the knot, its simple and quicker to tie. I tie in with a double bowline, as do many climbers. I do not know what you mean by "tie off." Jay A yosimite tie off. After I tie in, I take the excess slack and tie off.
ah, that would be a yosemite 'finish'- not a tie off. a tie off is something you would do to secure yourself via the rope to an anchor or secure the rope in some way.
yeah, i use a double bowline now and then when it suits me. other times, a fig-8.
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potreroed
Jan 3, 2011, 3:29 AM
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Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop?
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phang_nga
Jan 3, 2011, 3:30 AM
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Deano33 wrote: Does any one tie in with a bowline...
I quite often tie-in with a bowline, especially when top-roping (very short falls). I back it up with a single or double fisherman's knot on the tag end. The chances of knot or rope failure are very minimal. I'm a big guy and untying a figure 8 after a bit of a fall or after simply coming down make the bowline more appealing to me. A figure 8 gets tight as heII sometimes.
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bill413
Jan 3, 2011, 3:41 AM
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Deano33 wrote: Ive been away from the sport for alot of years, in my early 20's I lived and breathed climbing. I just got all the gear back out and been leaning up to get back into it. So i got out an old book ive had for years to touch up on my knots and rigging skills. Its called "ON ROPE". All the years of climbing in a gym and outside it was just standard to tie in with a figure 8. Well reading through the book, when you tie webbing together you use a water know, and when tieing off to an anchor they show pics of using the bowline. But when you tie into your harness most use a figure 8. Does any one tie in with a bowline and tie off? I like the knot, its simple and quicker to tie. I mean your trusting your life with a few other knots so why use the figure 8 at the harness?
Folks here have mentioned the backup or finish on a bowline. If you do tie in with a bowline, or better, double bowline, you MUST back it up somehow.
The 8 has the advantage of being easier to inspect. There have been incidents of injury from incorrectly tied knots.
(Disclaimer: I tie in with an 8; usually rig TR anchors with a bowline; usually water-knot my webbing; and use cloves, double bowlines, butterfly knots, strop hitches, and other things as the situation and my mood dictate.)
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Deano33
Jan 3, 2011, 3:55 AM
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bill413 wrote: Deano33 wrote: Ive been away from the sport for alot of years, in my early 20's I lived and breathed climbing. I just got all the gear back out and been leaning up to get back into it. So i got out an old book ive had for years to touch up on my knots and rigging skills. Its called "ON ROPE". All the years of climbing in a gym and outside it was just standard to tie in with a figure 8. Well reading through the book, when you tie webbing together you use a water know, and when tieing off to an anchor they show pics of using the bowline. But when you tie into your harness most use a figure 8. Does any one tie in with a bowline and tie off? I like the knot, its simple and quicker to tie. I mean your trusting your life with a few other knots so why use the figure 8 at the harness? Folks here have mentioned the backup or finish on a bowline. If you do tie in with a bowline, or better, double bowline, you MUST back it up somehow. The 8 has the advantage of being easier to inspect. There have been incidents of injury from incorrectly tied knots. (Disclaimer: I tie in with an 8; usually rig TR anchors with a bowline; usually water-knot my webbing; and use cloves, double bowlines, butterfly knots, strop hitches, and other things as the situation and my mood dictate.)
It just seems to me if you were say top roping, and its proven that a figure 8 is the best knot to tie (from what ive read). Then why not tie your anchors with figure 8's? If the other knots are inferior to the 8 then in a top roping situation they would be tied from worst to best if there is such a thing.
Thanks for the input, I don't like to be a test dummy, hearing others using the bowline to tie in with gives me confidence that its proven and I don't have anything to worry about.
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jt512
Jan 3, 2011, 4:02 AM
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potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop?
WTF! You just made that up.
Jay
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Deano33
Jan 3, 2011, 4:15 AM
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jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay
My google works.
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jt512
Jan 3, 2011, 4:17 AM
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Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_loop My google works.
Too bad your sense of humor doesn't.
Jay
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2011, 4:26 AM
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Deano33 wrote: I can see that bill, I think if i was to tie in at the gym with a bowline it might shock my belayer and ask me what that is? It just seems to me if you were say top roping, and its proven that a figure 8 is the best knot to tie (from what ive read). Then why not tie your anchors with figure 8's?
fwiw- most gyms wont let you tie in with a bowline for insurance reasons. i dont know if it'll shock your belayer, but a good chunk of climbers (mostly gym rats) cant identify (or safely check) a bowline.
the bowline has a different use than a fig-8 in anchoring. the bowline is nice for tying around trees because you dont need to create the first half of the knot and a guessed point on the rope- you can just toss the rope around the tree and tie the knot. the fig 8 is nice for tying on a bight and clipping into bolts or other gear.
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phang_nga
Jan 3, 2011, 5:22 AM
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One of the other nice aspects of the bowline vs the figure 8 is that it's cleaner. In other words, if you leave a nice long (even too long) tag line on the end and tie a backup knot in that, the remaining line is facing downward and can easily be tucked into your harness.
I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. I can see why gyms don't allow them as there are some really dumb people out there... imagine not double checking your knot! I can't imagine doing that, but I'm sure it happens. Actually, if you can't tie a bowline properly, there's something wrong with you. 
The Trident knot looks interesting, though a bit busy. It looks like it would be easy to get wrong.
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2011, 6:41 AM
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phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. I can see why gyms don't allow them as there are some really dumb people out there... imagine not double checking your knot! I can't imagine doing that, but I'm sure it happens. Actually, if you can't tie a bowline properly, there's something wrong with you. .
Im not sure calling a new gym climber dumb is appropriate in this context- ignorant, perhaps, but not dumb. Just because someone is unfamiliar with a knot doesnt make them an idiot. Especially when that particular knot is not allowed or used in a climbing gym, and only used by a minority of climbers outside until you get to a certain level of difficulty. (nobody ive seen climbing below .12 on bolts uses it)
That said- gyms dont allow the bowline because its difficult to check from a distance (and up close if you dont know the knot)- and the fact that there are many variations on the knot (bowline, double bowline, and then at least 4 diff backup/finishes if not 10 i dont know about). Fig-8s are EASY to inspect is basically what it comes down to.
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Urban_Cowboy
Jan 3, 2011, 9:40 AM
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phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone.
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phang_nga
Jan 3, 2011, 9:51 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: Im not sure calling a new gym climber dumb is appropriate in this context- ignorant, perhaps, but not dumb. That said- gyms dont allow the bowline because its difficult to check from a distance (and up close if you dont know the knot)- and the fact that there are many variations on the knot (bowline, double bowline, and then at least 4 diff backup/finishes if not 10 i dont know about). Fig-8s are EASY to inspect is basically what it comes down to.
Oops, that came out wrong... I meant to insult everyone equally.  I meant to say folks who climb on rock can be dumb too.
Sure, Figure 8 knots are a bit 'fool' proof. I guess that's why they're popular.
I'll climb with bowlines, but then again, I ALWAYS check and get my belayer to check too... all part of the pre-climb checklist. I hope my dumb ass never forgets to check the checklist. 
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sungam
Jan 3, 2011, 10:23 AM
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jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_loop My google works. Too bad your sense of humor doesn't. Jay
Looks like a pretty rad tie-in, though. How difficult is untying it after a few falls?
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sp115
Jan 3, 2011, 12:51 PM
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I've used a rethreaded bowline with a double fisherman finish for the tail, since the second time I fell on a rethreaded figure-8 . I used to be close 260lbs - it was almost comical trying to untie after falling. It's a definite advantage with big climbers.
http://www.guidedolomiti.com/eng/knots.html
(This post was edited by sp115 on Jan 9, 2011, 3:53 AM)
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Deano33
Jan 3, 2011, 12:54 PM
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sp115 wrote: I've used a rethreaded bowline with a double fisherman finish for the tail, since the second time I fell on a rethreaded figure-8 . I used to be close 260lbs - it was almost comical trying to untie after falling. It's a definite advantage with big climbers. http://www.guidedolomiti.com/eng/knots.html
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socalclimber
Jan 3, 2011, 1:02 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. I can see why gyms don't allow them as there are some really dumb people out there... imagine not double checking your knot! I can't imagine doing that, but I'm sure it happens. Actually, if you can't tie a bowline properly, there's something wrong with you. . Im not sure calling a new gym climber dumb is appropriate in this context- ignorant, perhaps, but not dumb. Just because someone is unfamiliar with a knot doesnt make them an idiot. Especially when that particular knot is not allowed or used in a climbing gym, and only used by a minority of climbers outside until you get to a certain level of difficulty. (nobody ive seen climbing below .12 on bolts uses it) That said- gyms dont allow the bowline because its difficult to check from a distance (and up close if you dont know the knot)- and the fact that there are many variations on the knot (bowline, double bowline, and then at least 4 diff backup/finishes if not 10 i dont know about). Fig-8s are EASY to inspect is basically what it comes down to.
The bowline was used a fair bit in comps for a while. Apparently they were banned because they were not being properly finished and a few people actually became untied and a climber decked. Strength issues aside, the bowline is nice because it can be easier to untie after being loaded. This is the big reason I use it in top rope anchoring systems.
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Lazlo
Jan 3, 2011, 1:37 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: (nobody ive seen climbing below .12 on bolts uses it)
Would it be spraying for me to say I tie in with the bowline?
And would it be deceptive of me to tie in with a bowline while climbing with a new partner? They may think I climb harder than I do.
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socalclimber
Jan 3, 2011, 2:35 PM
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Lazlo wrote: vegastradguy wrote: (nobody ive seen climbing below .12 on bolts uses it) Would it be spraying for me to say I tie in with the bowline? And would it be deceptive of me to tie in with a bowline while climbing with a new partner? They may think I climb harder than I do.
Oh the HORROR! 
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bill413
Jan 3, 2011, 2:40 PM
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Lazlo wrote: vegastradguy wrote: (nobody ive seen climbing below .12 on bolts uses it) Would it be spraying for me to say I tie in with the bowline? And would it be deceptive of me to tie in with a bowline while climbing with a new partner? They may think I climb harder than I do.
Ah - the best reason to use it!
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jan 3, 2011, 2:41 PM)
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lena_chita
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Jan 3, 2011, 2:59 PM
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Bowline is easier to untie than figure 8, after taking multiple falls. This is the reason why some sport climbers prefer it.
One of my regular partners uses bowline exclusively. Most, myself included, use figure 8 most of the time, and double bowline sometimes. No reason for it, other than the habbit, b/c I learned to use figure 8 first.
I was taught to always use a double bowline knot (not a single bowline) for tying in, and to have a long tail for back-up/finish.
I suppose the other good thing about bowline is that once you untie, there is no knot left on the rope, and thus you are less likely to find yourself in a situation where you start pulling the rope without checking for figure 8 still on the rope, and end up stuck. But that really isn't a big deal, most climbers just untie the figure 8 right away, including the knot that is left behind on the rope. Still, I know of couple cases where this has happened...
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I would be hard pressed to tie one without looking it up. I have learned it, but just never use it. I have never had any compelling reason to switch from the 8. And, I have been know to climb 12 sport. Although, usually I try to stay away from you weenies. 
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