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kimsismour
Oct 1, 2007, 2:46 PM
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I am curious is anybody knows how to prevent my ropes from getting twisted. I have heard that if you use different belay devises it can cause twist in the rope, but we all use the same belay devises, a reverso, and we all use the same hand to break.
Yesterday while climbing the rope was twisted so tight that it tied a knot in it's self while pulling the rope down. I am sure you can imagine my frustration when we had to hike to the shuts and rappel down to fix it.
Any words of wisdom on how to prevent this from happening??
I am using a petzl dynamic 60m rope, new as of June.
Thanks
Kim
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Carnage
Oct 1, 2007, 2:48 PM
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didnt i hear that the petzls were supposed to have some anti-twist weave or something?
edit: im not trying to say your doing something wrong, i just think that a "no twist weave" is kinda BS
(This post was edited by Carnage on Oct 1, 2007, 2:57 PM)
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coastal_climber
Oct 1, 2007, 2:53 PM
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Do some full length rappels on it. That usually helps.
>Cam
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reno
Oct 1, 2007, 2:56 PM
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Much rope twist can be avoided by properly unpacking the rope when you buy it. Put your arms though the center of the coil, and unwind by rolling your arms one over the other, in much the exact opposite as if you were spooling the rope.
Beyond that, you can get many twists out by doing a full length free hanging rappel. Of course, that requires that such a rappel be available in your area.
When storing, avoid the Mountaineer's Coil. Use a Butterfly/Backpack coil instead, or better yet a rope bag.
Last option is to flake and reflake and reflake several times over in the comfort of your own home. Slowly, the twists will work themselves out. Beer helps pass the time when doing this.
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kimsismour
Oct 1, 2007, 3:02 PM
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Thanks for the info on how to get the twists out, but does anybody know what causes them?
I already use a rope bag, and flake before every use. The funny part is I bought the rope because of the "anti twist" that petzl advertises.. i guess i was burned on that sales pitch...
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caughtinside
Oct 1, 2007, 3:04 PM
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kimsismour wrote: Thanks for the info on how to get the twists out, but does anybody know what causes them? I already use a rope bag, and flake before every use. The funny part is I bought the rope because of the "anti twist" that petzl advertises.. i guess i was burned on that sales pitch...
Toproping and lowering through an anchor where you're running the rope through two biners which aren't level is the most likely culprit.
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james481
Oct 1, 2007, 6:22 PM
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kimsismour wrote: I am curious is anybody knows how to prevent my ropes from getting twisted. I have heard that if you use different belay devises it can cause twist in the rope, but we all use the same belay devises, a reverso, and we all use the same hand to break. Yesterday while climbing the rope was twisted so tight that it tied a knot in it's self while pulling the rope down. I am sure you can imagine my frustration when we had to hike to the shuts and rappel down to fix it. Any words of wisdom on how to prevent this from happening?? I am using a petzl dynamic 60m rope, new as of June. Thanks Kim
Well, beyond a few "no-no"s that can really twist your rope up, I'm not sure that there is a whole lot that can keep twists from developing in your rope over time. If you don't happen to have a full-length hanging rappel handy (and many of us don't), I have had good luck using a Munter hitch to untwist my rope.
One thing you'll hear often about the Munter hitch is that it will twist your rope up like nobody's business. Well, that isn't quite accurate. In fact, the real "problem" is that a tight Munter will not allow twists to pass through it. The Munter doesn't introduce any twisting, it just pushes all the existing twist in a line behind it. Every rope will have some amount of twist in it, so if the Munter is used for a long belay (and the hitch is not properly fed for such a situation), the existing twist in the line will build up behind the Munter, leaving a snarled pile of twisted rope, hence the undeserved reputation for twisting the line.
While this can be downright inconvenient while climbing, we can use this particular attribute of the Munter to our advantage to untwist a rope. I generally do this every once in a while as part of normal rope maintenance, or any time I notice my line twisting up excessively and have a spare few minutes to remedy the problem (IOW, this is probably best done sitting at home in front of the TV, not hanging at a belay station). This will take 15 minutes or so, and leave you with a nice, straight, twist-free line (and some very tired arms).
Simply flake out your rope like usual, then take one end and tie it into a Munter on a large HMS biner. Now, you simply feed the entire length of rope through the Munter (it helps to be wearing a harness or belt you can clip the biner too). The trick to this is to keep the Munter nice and tight (so it's binding while feeding through the line). If the Munter is loose it will allow the twists through, so keep it as tight as possible (this is where the tired arms come in, you'll understand after you finish pulling 60m through a tight Munter). If done properly, you'll almost immediately notice the twists building up in the feeding side of the line. Keep pushing those twists down as you feed the rope (don't loosen the Munter and allow the twists through!). Eventually (it will seem like forever), you will reach the other end of the rope (which will flail around wildly as the twists fall out) and be rewarded for all of your hard work with a line that is virtually free of any twist (until you climb on it, coil it, or look at it funny).
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Carnage
Oct 1, 2007, 6:47 PM
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james response seems logical. i think im gonna try it out today.
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gogounou
Oct 1, 2007, 6:57 PM
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True. Thanks, James. I hadn't thought of it that way before.
Now I'll just have to avoid looking at my rope funny...
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kimsismour
Oct 1, 2007, 6:59 PM
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Thanks for the Feedback from everyone!! I actually just learned how to tie a munter hitch with one hand so this is a good way to practice :-) Also other than avoiding rope drag another great reason to have your rope system run as straight as possible-- to avoid twisting rope!!!
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2007, 7:03 PM
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james, I'm not sure I buy that. I don't think I'd do that to my rope. I think it would introduce twists into it. Yes, you can belay with a Muenter, but the only way to do so without introducing twists is to *feed/push* rope through. Essentially the opposite of what you're saying. If you pull rope through under tension, IME, you will create twists in the rope.
GO
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james481
Oct 1, 2007, 7:25 PM
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cracklover wrote: james, I'm not sure I buy that. I don't think I'd do that to my rope. I think it would introduce twists into it. Yes, you can belay with a Muenter, but the only way to do so without introducing twists is to *feed/push* rope through. Essentially the opposite of what you're saying. If you pull rope through under tension, IME, you will create twists in the rope. GO
Well, to be fair, I did just sort of pull this trick out of my rear after a otherwise great climbing day marred by a twisted cord, and I've never seen it detailed anywhere as a recommended procedure (If it become one, I want it known as the "James Procedure"  ). Also, you're correct about belaying with the Munter, but for the wrong reason. The Munter does not introduce twists in your rope, but a tight Munter will not allow twists to pass through it, hence, when belaying with one, the procedure of pushing the rope through the hitch keeps it from binding, allowing the twists to pass through. As such, you're right, we're trying to accomplish the exact opposite in this case (that is, not allow the Munter to feed the twists through so they can fall out of the end of the rope when it is reached).
That being said, there is an easy test you can do to verify this procedure (which I did when I first thought of it). Simply do the procedure to your rope twice. The first time, you'll have twists falling out the rope when you reach the end. The second, you'll notice that there is now very little to no twisting building up behind the Munter. Try it yourself, you may be pleasantly surprised (not to mention shocked how much twist is built up in your cord).
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2007, 8:41 PM
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Well, I really think you're misinterpreting what you're seeing with your rope. Pretty much all belay devices, if you rappel through them, will force any twists in the rope off the end. What a muenter will do is *create* twists, and then force them off the end of the rope. Unfortunately, that leaves a twisted but straight rope behind. And when you do your munter trick again (unless you use more force than you did the first time) the natural forces in the rope won't let you add yet more twists.
GO
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roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 1, 2007, 8:49 PM
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cracklover wrote: What a muenter will do is *create* twists, and then force them off the end of the rope.
Not if you keep the rope strands parallel -- same apples to rappeling with a figure-8 device. It's only when the brake side rope is at an angle do these create twists.
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bbirtle
Oct 1, 2007, 9:07 PM
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OK who's right: cracklover or james?
Paging a lab geek to the white courtesy phone!
I'm tempted to do it myself since to figure out a way to unkink any of my four active service ropes would be a godsend.
What about doing James' trick from one of the rope, then repeating it from the *other* end? If cracklover is correct, the rope should get all snarly again. If James is right, no coils.
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james481
Oct 1, 2007, 9:20 PM
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cracklover wrote: Well, I really think you're misinterpreting what you're seeing with your rope.
You think I'm misinterpreting a rope that feeds, coils, flakes and handles like it has no twists in it, when it's actually more twisted than before? I'm sorry, I may be a noob climber, but I've worked with enough rope, both in climbing and in my rescue background, to know how a twisted vs. non-twisted rope handles and behaves. I had a twisted rope, I ran it through a tight Munter, and now it is not twisted. It's pretty simple stuff, really.
cracklover wrote: Pretty much all belay devices, if you rappel through them, will force any twists in the rope off the end.
Yes, if the rope happens to be hanging free off of the ground. Which is why I recommended my method for people who don't happen to have a long, free-hanging rappel in the backyard. If you hang your rope in the air off of an anchor, the twists will naturally fall out of it, belay device or no.
cracklover wrote: What a muenter will do is *create* twists, and then force them off the end of the rope.
I fail to see what you're basing this on. Try this: take a length of cord maybe 6 feet long, and hold it in the air until all of the twists fall out of it. Now, run your untwisted cord through a Munter, making sure you hold the feeding end firmly in your hand (so as not to allow any twists off the end of the cord). What you'll find is that the Munter does not create any twists in the cord. If you start with twist free cord, both ends coming out of the Munter will remain twist free. Don't take my word for it, try it yourself. This becomes even more clear if you run a loop of cord in a Munter (such as when tying a PMMO to pass a knot or escape a belay). If what you are saying was true, when you feed the loop through the Munter to release tension on the hitch, the loop would twist, cross, and snarl badly, and yet it doesn't, because the Munter doesn't create any twisting.
cracklover wrote: Unfortunately, that leaves a twisted but straight rope behind. And when you do your munter trick again (unless you use more force than you did the first time) the natural forces in the rope won't let you add yet more twists.
Apparently you should try this on your own rope or cord before you pass any more judgement, as this is clearly incorrect. I can twist a length of rope into a snarled, tangled mess with minimal effort by holding one end and twisting the other, and yet you'll have me believe that after one pass through a Munter, the rope is now twisted to the point where I cannot physically add more twist into it (even with another evil Munter), yet shows no indication of this severe twisting when coiling, flaking, or feeding? In fact, it seems, by all measures, that it is now twist free?
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billl7
Oct 1, 2007, 9:26 PM
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Go ahead and shoot me if I'm wrong, but aren't we addressing 2 different things?
i) twist. I like this definition: to MOVE in a twisting or contorted motion, (especially when struggling); "The prisoner writhed in discomfort"; "The child tried to wriggle free from his aunt's embrace"
ii) spring-like coil: if the rope were vertically hanging free and one looked up the length of it then it would have coils like a spring.
For a rope, I think of "i" as resulting from externally applied forces like one end of the rope being rotated (twisted) while the other end is kept stationary; this would be a temporary condition and relatively easy to resolve. For "ii", something has forcefully acted along the length of the rope such that it has spring-like coils; I've read about this happending after rapping on a munter with certain kinds of biners.
Bill L
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james481
Oct 1, 2007, 10:13 PM
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bbirtle wrote: What about doing James' trick from one of the rope, then repeating it from the *other* end? If cracklover is correct, the rope should get all snarly again. If James is right, no coils.
I did this very test when I came up with (read: pulled from my ass) this method. The first pass through the Munter, there were so many twists in the feeding end that I had to manually shake them down the rope as I fed. The second, not a twist in sight. I assure everybody that this method worked perfectly for me, and I am astute enough to tell a badly twisted rope from one with few or no twists in it. I suppose that all you can do is give it a try and report back if it worked for you or not. I can assure you that there is no way that this method will produce more twisting than is already in your rope.
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bbirtle
Oct 1, 2007, 10:44 PM
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james481 wrote: bbirtle wrote: What about doing James' trick from one of the rope, then repeating it from the *other* end? ... I did this very test when I came up with (read: pulled from my ass) this method. ...
Yes but was the second time you did it from the same end or the other end?
Anyway I'm nearly convinced enough to try it on my badly twisted old orange rope with the cut in the middle (now retired)... anybody else's experience?
(This post was edited by bbirtle on Oct 1, 2007, 10:44 PM)
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james481
Oct 1, 2007, 10:53 PM
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bbirtle wrote: james481 wrote: bbirtle wrote: What about doing James' trick from one of the rope, then repeating it from the *other* end? ... I did this very test when I came up with (read: pulled from my ass) this method. ... Yes but was the second time you did it from the same end or the other end? Anyway I'm nearly convinced enough to try it on my badly twisted old orange rope with the cut in the middle (now retired)... anybody else's experience?
Well, when I did it I didn't flip the coil over in between "passes" or anything like that. I started one end through the Munter and into a pile. When the rope was all the way through, I started on the end on the top of the pile (IOW the end that I had just finished) and ran that all the way back through, so after both passes the rope was in the same "sided" pile as it started in originally. I'm not sure if that helps or if that's what you meant, but there ya go.
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stymingersfink
Oct 2, 2007, 1:28 AM
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kimsismour wrote: Thanks for the info on how to get the twists out, but does anybody know what causes them? I already use a rope bag, and flake before every use. The funny part is I bought the rope because of the "anti twist" that petzl advertises.. i guess i was burned on that sales pitch...
the key, really, is to make sure you don't put twists in your rope with your belay device when rapping or lowering. keep the free end(s) of the rope in alignment with the slots of your ATC (or what have you) or straight over the end of your GriGri. Pulling them off to the side, while increasing slightly the amount of friction, will also introduce twists.
Every method of belaying or rappelling, if done improperly, will introduce twists to your rope. The trick is to learn what WILL cause the twists, then avoid those things.
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james481
Oct 2, 2007, 2:05 AM
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I thought about this some more during the afternoon, and wanted to figure this out. Was my experience just a fluke? Did my frustratingly twisted line straighten itself out by some other means than running through on a Munter? Or is this a viable way to remove twist from a line?
To test this a little more, I used some 8mm perlon (about 8 feet after knot) tied to a table leg with a double bowline, with a large enough loop so that it is easier to tell how much twist is in the cord (by pushing all twist onto the loop to see how many times the loop crosses itself).
First, I attempted to remove all twist from this length of cord, to run it through a Munter to see if the hitch induced any twist in the fixed end of the cord. The first thing that I learned is that measuring twist in a line in any meaningful way is pretty hard (although I'm sure there is a technical way to do it). That being said, I removed as much twist as possible from the cord, and then ran the eight feet or so through a tight Munter tied on a William screwgate. I found that as long as the "brake" or feeding strand is kept parallel to the load strand, no detectable amount of twist is induced in either strand. However, if the feeding strand is allowed to run over the spine of the biner (out the side of the hitch), the hitch will induce twist on the feeding strand, but no detectable twist on the load strand. I'd assume that this is the same cause as that generated by running the rope asymmetrically over biners, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Next, I intentionally twisted the length of cord 2 full twists (so the loop of the bowline crosses four times), then tied a Munter on the other end, and shook out the cord slightly to distribute the twists along the length. As I ran the cord through the Munter, I was sure to keep the hitch tight and the two strands parallel. What I found is that the load end came out of the hitch with no detectable twist on it at first. As I got closer to the end of the cord, the twists started to "bunch" up at the end. When this occurred, it became very difficult to feed any cord through the Munter without loosening it. With great difficulty, I managed to get half a twist to feed through the tightened Munter, but it required a good deal of force on the load strand before it would slip a little cord through.
My conclusion from this highly technical and involved testing  is that a tight Munter may be able to feed twists through it, but only with great difficulty, and with something larger than 8mm cord, maybe not at all. Under no circumstances did I notice any twisting in the load strand of the cord caused by the Munter. Thus, I conclude that the Munter may be a viable method for removing the twists from a long length of rope, provided you keep two points in mind:
1) The Munter must be kept tight, and for best results the two strands should be kept parallel while feeding.
2) The twists in the rope should be allowed to "flow" down as you feed the rope into the Munter. As mentioned above, my rope had enough twist in it that I had to stop after each feed or so and shake the twist further down the line.
It is possible to feed a twisted line through the Munter, but to do so takes quite a bit of force. I feel that the twists in the line will quite probably travel down the line (and all the way off the end) rather than feed through the Munter. YMMV, My $0.02, IANAL, and all standard disclaimers apply...
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Brett1234
Oct 2, 2007, 3:22 AM
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James is correcct, a hitch in the rope does not introduce twists, it pushes them down and off the rope. You can see a simple demonstration of this with some accessory cord. Twist it up and then pull it under tension through two fingers. The twists will uncoil themselves on the free end as you pull.
Similarly, rappeling on a hitch does not twist the rope, it makes the existing twists noticeable. Think about it- in order to 'twist' the rope one end would have to rotate either clock- or anti-clockwise with respect to the other end. That's not happening when you are rapelling on a hitch.
James, we used your technique in US Army Air-Assault school (rigging, rappelling, etc..) to get twists our of our triple-strand nylon ropes (not kernmantles). We fixed one end and ran out to the other end keeping the rope in tension. Coiling the rope from the center mark out to the ends is an easy way to limit future twisting. So anyway, thanks for your clear explanation in the post above; hopefully this fallacy that hitches twist the rope can be layed to rest.
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