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ja1484
Nov 29, 2007, 4:36 AM
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You're gonna die. It's well known that you cannot mark a rope with a rope marker from another manufacturer!
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coastal_climber
Nov 29, 2007, 4:40 AM
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I have the same in bi-color already coming, but I'm wondering if I can do anything other than send it back/sell it.
>Cam
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hhelbein
Nov 29, 2007, 4:40 AM
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I have a Sterling Kosmos rope. Sterling support recommended the Beal rope marker when I emailed them about it.
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coastal_climber
Nov 29, 2007, 4:46 AM
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Thanks, I think I will send them an email too.
>Cam
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mr_rogers
Nov 29, 2007, 5:11 AM
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Found this on the NEIce.com website. They got it from the Alpine Club of Canada
In reply to: Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.
http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/forms/Marking%20of%20Ropes.doc
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moose_droppings
Nov 29, 2007, 5:28 AM
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Only mark Sterling rope with a Sterling marker. Same with the Beal marker, only on Beal ropes
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shermanr6
Nov 29, 2007, 5:42 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Only mark Sterling rope with a Sterling marker. Same with the Beal marker, only on Beal ropes
phew, good thing my rope is made by sharpie.
(This post was edited by shermanr6 on Nov 29, 2007, 5:44 AM)
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coastal_climber
Nov 29, 2007, 5:45 AM
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Sterling doesn't make a rope marker.
>Cam
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ja1484
Nov 29, 2007, 12:48 PM
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mr_rogers wrote: Found this on the NEIce.com website. They got it from the Alpine Club of Canada In reply to: Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application. http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/forms/Marking%20of%20Ropes.doc
God, not this nonsense again...
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sterlingjim
Nov 29, 2007, 2:22 PM
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You can PM me or email me directly if you wish.
jim(at)sterlingrope.com
Since all dynamic ropes are made of nylon it stands to reason that the brand of rope marker makes no difference to the brand of rope.
However...
I've found that all the rope markers on the market can cause some reduction in the number of falls held. Even middle marks applied by manufacturers can cause a reduction. The reduction is directly related to the formula of the ink and/or the amount of saturation of the rope.
For after market marking of ropes I recommend stitching a few strands of dental floss or similar material through the rope. Needles will not harm the rope.
-Jim
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roy_hinkley_jr
Nov 29, 2007, 4:03 PM
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sterlingjim wrote: I've found that all the rope markers on the market can cause some reduction in the number of falls held. Even middle marks applied by manufacturers can cause a reduction. The reduction is directly related to the formula of the ink and/or the amount of saturation of the rope.
But realistically, this isn't a concern either. All the reported tests only show a very slight decrease in number of falls held when the marked area was placed directly on the top "carabiner." If you have other data showing a more significant decrease when the mark is anywhere else, please share.
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happiegrrrl
Nov 29, 2007, 4:19 PM
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Defointely don't use waxed dental floss - it will attract dirt......
What about the mint-flavored(green color) dental floss? Do you think the fresh-minty flavoring used would affect the rope?
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sterlingjim
Nov 29, 2007, 4:58 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: sterlingjim wrote: I've found that all the rope markers on the market can cause some reduction in the number of falls held. Even middle marks applied by manufacturers can cause a reduction. The reduction is directly related to the formula of the ink and/or the amount of saturation of the rope. But realistically, this isn't a concern either. All the reported tests only show a very slight decrease in number of falls held when the marked area was placed directly on the top "carabiner." If you have other data showing a more significant decrease when the mark is anywhere else, please share.
I have no other test data I'd be willing to share at this time.
Your point about the mark being placed directly on the carabiner (radius) is probably the most significant. The chances of taking a fall that puts the middle mark directly on the top carabiner are lower than anyone could reasonably calculate. Even if it were possible to load directly on the middle mark it would not be on there for long as the rope stretches.
But when considering people putting ink middle marks on the rope themselves I think it's a good idea to be a little cautious with how much is applied. Saturating the thing entirely through is not a good idea.
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ja1484
Nov 29, 2007, 5:52 PM
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sterlingjim wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: sterlingjim wrote: I've found that all the rope markers on the market can cause some reduction in the number of falls held. Even middle marks applied by manufacturers can cause a reduction. The reduction is directly related to the formula of the ink and/or the amount of saturation of the rope. But realistically, this isn't a concern either. All the reported tests only show a very slight decrease in number of falls held when the marked area was placed directly on the top "carabiner." If you have other data showing a more significant decrease when the mark is anywhere else, please share. I have no other test data I'd be willing to share at this time. Your point about the mark being placed directly on the carabiner (radius) is probably the most significant. The chances of taking a fall that puts the middle mark directly on the top carabiner are lower than anyone could reasonably calculate. Even if it were possible to load directly on the middle mark it would not be on there for long as the rope stretches. But when considering people putting ink middle marks on the rope themselves I think it's a good idea to be a little cautious with how much is applied. Saturating the thing entirely through is not a good idea.
Thanks for the comments Jim.
We've been over this and over this, and it pretty much boils down to:
- Ink marking does decrease the number of falls held by a dynamic rope. But...
- We're talking about falls so vicious it's been determined they're impossible to replicate in the wild. And...
- We're still talking about multiples of these falls on the same exact point on the rope, with almost no time in between to recover modulus. Even the "weakest" single dynamic lines are rated to hold 5 - 6 falls, meaning marked, we're talking about 2.5 - 3 at a minimum. Plus...
- It's incredibly unlikely anyone is *ever* going to take the 200-foot whip required to put a factor-2 thumping on the middle of your standard 60m rope. Additionally...
- It's even less likely that someone will take multiples of said whip. Thus...
- Marking your rope with a Sharpie is really a non-issue, although I agree that the less saturation the better. I personally use the following system, it may be a little hard to visualize, but I'll try:
I locate the middle of the rope, and then apply an approximately 1-inch by .25 inch rectangular mark along the length of the rope (NOT around it). I then move to one side of this mark and rotate the rope a quarter turn, and apply another similar mark. Usually, I leave about a 1-2" gap between marks. I do this for about 12" on either side of the exact middle.
Thus, I have a middle mark that's easily spotted, but never at any point have I applied ink around the entire circumference of the rope. Theoretically (and this is purely that, because I have no data and know of none), this would mean that at every point on the rope, even the marked sections, the majority of fibers have not been exposed to the ink. I like to pretend this puts me somewhere between what the UIAA tests have shown and full strength ratings...hedging my bets, so to speak.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Nov 29, 2007, 5:55 PM)
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coastal_climber
Nov 29, 2007, 6:23 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Sterling doesn't make a rope marker. Do a search. 
I looked on sterling's website and didn't find anything. Could you point me in the right direction?
>Cam
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chilli
Nov 29, 2007, 6:28 PM
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ja1484 wrote: ...Thus, I have a middle mark that's easily spotted, but never at any point have I applied ink around the entire circumference of the rope. Theoretically (and this is purely that, because I have no data and know of none), this would mean that at every point on the rope, even the marked sections, the majority of fibers have not been exposed to the ink. I like to pretend this puts me somewhere between what the UIAA tests have shown and full strength ratings...hedging my bets, so to speak.  . that's a good idea.
my rope is dark, and i've used the dental floss technique (with a slight exception).
the exception is because the simple tension by pulling the tails under the wraps gets a bit looser after a while; so i bring the floss under the wraps, and then pull up through to meet other end i left poking through previously, then tie a square, and apply pressure through the horizontal by pulling upward on one strand (if that makes sense). this pushes the knot back down under the wraps, and with a little twisting everything stays flat and tucked. there's a miniscule bump that way, but i've never found it really noticeable, and it stays nicely.
once again spending more time than i need to with a simple task.
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coastal_climber
Nov 29, 2007, 9:17 PM
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I sent an email to sterling;
From: Cam Smith [mailto:climbercam@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:50 PM
Subject: Marking Sterling Rope with Beal Rope Marker
I heard from another climber that he contacted you and it was ok to use the Beal Rope Marker on Sterling ropes. Can you confirm this?
Reply was;
Yes, Cam, it's true - you can use the Beal Rope Marker on a Sterling Rope. However, please read Jim's post in rockclimbing.com for more information (I believe you are following the thread). Also, Sterling does not make a rope marker. If you have additional questions, please email Jim directly at jim@sterlingrope.com.
>Cam
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glytch
Nov 29, 2007, 10:28 PM
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shermanr6 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: Only mark Sterling rope with a Sterling marker. Same with the Beal marker, only on Beal ropes phew, good thing my rope is made by sharpie.
Just what I was thinking. Awesome.
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knudenoggin
Nov 29, 2007, 11:54 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: Defointely don't use waxed dental floss - it will attract dirt...... What about the mint-flavored(green color) dental floss? Do you think the fresh-minty flavoring used would affect the rope?
it will attrach leprechauns!
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knudenoggin
Nov 30, 2007, 12:05 AM
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ja1484 wrote: - We're talking about falls so vicious it's been determined they're impossible to replicate in the wild. And... - We're still talking about multiples of these falls on the same exact point on the rope, with almost no time in between to recover modulus. ... Plus ... - It's incredibly unlikely anyone is *ever* going to take the 200-foot whip required to put a factor-2 thumping on the middle of your standard 60m rope.
Right, the century run-out w/o protection and falling on the Jesus nut.
I think you put things in the right perspective.
Yes, there might be some other places one wants a mark,
but ya still got 2 outta 3 above applying.
Btw, it has always struck me as highly peculiar that Mammut ran tests
of a competitor's gear, and the UIAA acted on these, with NO
indication of the other vendor making a response to the allegations!?
(And M. just happens to have this stock of bi-color ropes to sell ... .)
--dl*
====
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