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potreroed
Jan 3, 2011, 5:15 PM
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sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_loop My google works. Too bad your sense of humor doesn't. Jay I laffed. Looks like a pretty rad tie-in, though. How difficult is untying it after a few falls?
You can hang on a trident loop all day and it is easy to untie.
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rgold
Jan 3, 2011, 6:20 PM
Post #27 of 66
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I started out using a bowline back in the day when you just tied the rope around your waist. Tried the figure-8 for a brief while and went back to the bowline, which is a little more compact and can be untied after loading without a struggle.
I do think that, in the climbing world, "bowline" should mean "bowline with Yosemite finish." A plain bowline without the Yosemite finish (which was in use long before Yosemite climbers started using it) has two disadvantages. (1) It can loosen, especially under intermittent loading, and (2) it will not withstand ring-loading.
Personally, I add a stopper knot to the Yosemite finish to guarantee ring-loading strength and stability.
I use a single bowline for top-roping (my gym allows them) and a double-bowline for lead climbing. It is true that the double bowline is stronger, but this is irrelevant---climbing ropes don't break in general and don't break at the knot in particular.
The reason I use the double bowline outdoors is that it has been determined that knots absorb a bit of fall energy and I think---without any test evidence---that the extra turn in the double bowline will allow for more absorbing action.
I think the ability to check a bowline is way overemphasized. Any wrong method of tying falls apart in the hand immediately. The only failures I can imagine would be a result of using a bowline without the Yosemite finish (not a climbing knot according to my definition) and then not noticing that it had loosened.
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vegastradguy
Jan 3, 2011, 6:42 PM
Post #28 of 66
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Lazlo wrote: vegastradguy wrote: (nobody ive seen climbing below .12 on bolts uses it) Would it be spraying for me to say I tie in with the bowline? And would it be deceptive of me to tie in with a bowline while climbing with a new partner? They may think I climb harder than I do.
yes to both, which is why i ALWAYS tie in with a double bowline when climbing with new partners or noobs- impressive and confusing, the knot makes me look much stronger than i actually am.
rgold wrote: I think the ability to check a bowline is way overemphasized. Any wrong method of tying falls apart in the hand immediately. The only failures I can imagine would be a result of using a bowline without the Yosemite finish (not a climbing knot according to my definition) and then not noticing that it had loosened.
i agree- but i think its more of an issue that climbers dont recognize the knot than necessarily checking it. before i sacked up and learned the knot, if i had a partner who used it, i just told them to be confident that they tied it correctly, as i was unfamiliar with the knot. most of the time they re-checked and climbed on. other times, they switched to a fig-8. whatever worked for them mentally if fine with me.
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sungam
Jan 4, 2011, 12:50 AM
Post #29 of 66
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potreroed wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_loop My google works. Too bad your sense of humor doesn't. Jay I laffed. Looks like a pretty rad tie-in, though. How difficult is untying it after a few falls? You can hang on a trident loop all day and it is easy to untie. 
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potreroed
Jan 4, 2011, 1:05 AM
Post #30 of 66
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sungam wrote: potreroed wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_loop My google works. Too bad your sense of humor doesn't. Jay I laffed. Looks like a pretty rad tie-in, though. How difficult is untying it after a few falls? You can hang on a trident loop all day and it is easy to untie. If I tie in with one will people think I put up badass lines in El Potrero?
Prolly not. You gotta put up the badass routes first.
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sungam
Jan 4, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #31 of 66
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potreroed wrote: sungam wrote: potreroed wrote: sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Deano33 wrote: jt512 wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? WTF! You just made that up. Jay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_loop My google works. Too bad your sense of humor doesn't. Jay I laffed. Looks like a pretty rad tie-in, though. How difficult is untying it after a few falls? You can hang on a trident loop all day and it is easy to untie. If I tie in with one will people think I put up badass lines in El Potrero? Prolly not. You gotta put up the badass routes first.
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brokesomeribs
Jan 4, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #32 of 66
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phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone.
The bowline is a hitch, not a knot. Hitches by definition are temporary knots. They come untied, particularly under cyclical loading.
A double bowline is probably the safest way to tie in after a figure 8. Tying a single bowline with a backup fisherman's knot around the ring of the bowline is a mediocre second.
I use a double bowline in the gym and spring/summer/fall, but on ice/alpine i find that the double bowline doesn't take kindly to frozen ropes, so I stick a with a figure 8 whenever ice or snow is on the menu for the day. I've had my double bowline get alarmingly loose over a day of ice climbing.
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MS1
Jan 4, 2011, 9:44 PM
Post #33 of 66
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brokesomeribs wrote: phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. The bowline is a hitch, not a knot. Hitches by definition are temporary knots. They come untied, particularly under cyclical loading. A double bowline is probably the safest way to tie in after a figure 8. Tying a single bowline with a backup fisherman's knot around the ring of the bowline is a mediocre second. I use a double bowline in the gym and spring/summer/fall, but on ice/alpine i find that the double bowline doesn't take kindly to frozen ropes, so I stick a with a figure 8 whenever ice or snow is on the menu for the day. I've had my double bowline get alarmingly loose over a day of ice climbing.
The bowline is generally referred to as a knot, not a hitch, and a single bowline with a well-secured back-up knot is extremely secure and strong enough for climbing purposes. Rgold's post up above provides the only reasonably good explanation that I've seen for why one might prefer a double bowline. I've climbed using a single, backed-up bowline as my primary tie-in for a few years, and I've never found it too loose after climbing.
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billcoe_
Jan 4, 2011, 10:47 PM
Post #34 of 66
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MS1 wrote: I've climbed using a single, backed-up bowline as my primary tie-in for a few years, and I've never found it too loose after climbing.
The fact that it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't change the fact that properly tied (single) Bowlines have become untied and resulted in several fatality's.
I don't recall hearing of a double bowline untied on route yet, not to say it hasn't occurred.
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MS1
Jan 4, 2011, 10:58 PM
Post #35 of 66
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billcoe_ wrote: MS1 wrote: I've climbed using a single, backed-up bowline as my primary tie-in for a few years, and I've never found it too loose after climbing. The fact that it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't change the fact that properly tied (single) Bowlines have become untied and resulted in several fatality's. I don't recall hearing of a double bowline untied on route yet, not to say it hasn't occurred.
Let me reemphasize the words "backed-up." I'm not aware of any reported incidents of a properly backed-up bowline coming untied on route. But if you can point me to one, I'll be interested.
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Deano33
Jan 5, 2011, 1:47 AM
Post #36 of 66
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A bowline with a good tie off is as good as any knot, in my opinion. After I doing alittle more research its a popular know.
My quesiton has been answered, i guess ill tie what tickles my fancy at the time.
Goes back to what I was saying earlier, if you trust the water for tieing webbing and the bowline for anchor points to me its suitable to tie off on.
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altelis
Jan 5, 2011, 2:07 AM
Post #37 of 66
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brokesomeribs wrote: phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. The bowline is a hitch, not a knot. Hitches by definition are temporary knots. They come untied, particularly under cyclical loading. A double bowline is probably the safest way to tie in after a figure 8. Tying a single bowline with a backup fisherman's knot around the ring of the bowline is a mediocre second. I use a double bowline in the gym and spring/summer/fall, but on ice/alpine i find that the double bowline doesn't take kindly to frozen ropes, so I stick a with a figure 8 whenever ice or snow is on the menu for the day. I've had my double bowline get alarmingly loose over a day of ice climbing.
Both hitches and loop-knots are tied around objects. It's my understanding (which can of course be wrong) that the difference b/w a hitch and a loop-knot comes down to what happens when/if the object in the middle is removed. A knot will remain the same and a hitch will collapse.
Lets say you tie a clove hitch around a stake in the ground and a figure eight follow-through around another stake.
When you pull the stakes out and pick up the rope with the clove hitch in it you will end up just holding a straight rope with nothing in it.
When you pull the stakes out and pick up the rope with the figure-eight in it you will end up holding a piece of rope with the figure-eight still tied in the end.
(Assuming this classification is correct), a bowline would certainly be a knot not a hitch.
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phang_nga
Jan 5, 2011, 2:38 AM
Post #38 of 66
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brokesomeribs wrote: phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. The bowline is a hitch, not a knot. Hitches by definition are temporary knots. They come untied, particularly under cyclical loading.
Properly tied bowlines don't come undone, especially with a backup knot. I can see no way that a bowline can come undone unless the tag end is too short... even without a backup knot. The key is making the knot tight when you tie it.
I've tied hundreds of bowlines and never even had one loosen up. Maybe some more slippery rope has a higher possibility of coming lose. I've never experienced that personally.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 5, 2011, 9:36 PM
Post #39 of 66
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phang_nga wrote: Properly tied bowlines don't come undone, especially with a backup knot. I can see no way that a bowline can come undone unless the tag end is too short... even without a backup knot. The key is making the knot tight when you tie it. I've tied hundreds of bowlines and never even had one loosen up. Maybe some more slippery rope has a higher possibility of coming lose. I've never experienced that personally.
It's actually more of a problem with stiff ropes and repeated little tugs. There's no real reason to use a double bowline instead of a single. Both are equally secure and both require a good backup. The term "Yosemite finish" is way too vague since it means different things to different people and in different books. A single fisherman snugged up close to the bowline is as good as anything.
I have yet to climb in a gym that wouldn't let me use a bowline. If there are any, it's like less to do with insurance and more to do with customers who can't tie a figure 8 without half of it left in the rope.
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knudenoggin
Jan 7, 2011, 4:21 AM
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brokesomeribs wrote: The bowline is a hitch, not a knot. Hitches by definition are temporary knots. They come untied, particularly under cyclical loading.
This is wrong in all ways : bowlines are eye-knots which are (just)
"knots" by the old, inadequate trad. classification (here and there
one can see the string "bowline hitch" used when the knot is shown
being tied around something); hitches are knots tied to and in need
of an object for their integrity (they might evaporate, like a clove
hitch, on the object's removal, or just become a knot (such as the
strangle knot --which is what one might tie off a bowline's tail with,
NOT a "single fisherman" or whathaveyou),
and neither hitches nor knots are assured of any temporariness
(though in some cases one should prefer a splice) --they can become
"welded" permanent for a use.
In reply to: I've had my double bowline get alarmingly loose over a day of ice climbing.
Then might try to secure it, quite simply, by wrapping the tail
around the double-turn of the knot and binding that. It's called
thus the "End-Bound Dlb. Bowline", viewable in a crude sketch
here: http://i3.tinypic.com/wjwh1t.jpg
--along with two other simple ways to secure a bowline.
phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone.
I'm quite surprised to see someone say that their bowlines
without any further securing have never loosened; I find many
ropes so firm-stiff-smooth/slick that the bowline never gets
comfortably set, without some help.
As for the "Trident loop", that is an unwanted awkwardness.
If you're game for something non-traditional, there are many
better choices. Not long ago, someone posted some good
results with Rosenthal's "Zeppelin" end-2-end knot used in
eye-knot form --here : http://www.treebuzz.com/...2823&Main=229971
*kN*
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wiki
Jan 7, 2011, 6:31 AM
Post #41 of 66
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potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop?
I tie in with a 3/4 fishermans which is very similar.
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sp115
Jan 7, 2011, 12:53 PM
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wiki wrote: potreroed wrote: Anyone else out there tie in with a trident loop? I tie in with a 3/4 fishermans which is very similar.
Isn't that a slip knot?
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phang_nga
Jan 7, 2011, 3:38 PM
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knudenoggin wrote: I'm quite surprised to see someone say that their bowlines without any further securing have never loosened; I find many ropes so firm-stiff-smooth/slick that the bowline never gets comfortably set, without some help
Oh, I always tie a back-up knot in the tag end. Even with that though, I"ve personally never had a bowline come loose. Maybe I take extra care in setting each bend in the knot or something, I don't know. I have no reason to doubt those who have had problems with their knots becoming loose.
It would be interesting if we were side-by-side tying the knot to see if there was any (minor?) difference in the process.
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sp115
Jan 7, 2011, 3:54 PM
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phang_nga wrote: knudenoggin wrote: I'm quite surprised to see someone say that their bowlines without any further securing have never loosened; I find many ropes so firm-stiff-smooth/slick that the bowline never gets comfortably set, without some help Oh, I always tie a back-up knot in the tag end. Even with that though, I"ve personally never had a bowline come loose. Maybe I take extra care in setting each bend in the knot or something, I don't know. I have no reason to doubt those who have had problems with their knots becoming loose. It would be interesting if we were side-by-side tying the knot to see if there was any (minor?) difference in the process.
There is at least one common variation of the simple bowline. I don't concern myself with difference because I tie in with the rethreaded version, but if you don't, it may be something you should consider.
"Standard" on left "Dutch" or "Cowboy" on right.
(Edit to correct labels)
(This post was edited by sp115 on Jan 7, 2011, 6:19 PM)
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cfnubbler
Jan 7, 2011, 4:41 PM
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brokesomeribs wrote: phang_nga wrote: I can't see a properly tied bowline ever coming undone. The bowline is a hitch, not a knot. Hitches by definition are temporary knots. They come untied, particularly under cyclical loading. quote] Good grief. Wrong.
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jt512
Jan 7, 2011, 4:57 PM
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sp115 wrote: phang_nga wrote: knudenoggin wrote: I'm quite surprised to see someone say that their bowlines without any further securing have never loosened; I find many ropes so firm-stiff-smooth/slick that the bowline never gets comfortably set, without some help Oh, I always tie a back-up knot in the tag end. Even with that though, I"ve personally never had a bowline come loose. Maybe I take extra care in setting each bend in the knot or something, I don't know. I have no reason to doubt those who have had problems with their knots becoming loose. It would be interesting if we were side-by-side tying the knot to see if there was any (minor?) difference in the process. There is at least one common variation of the simple bowline. I don't concern myself with difference because I tie in with the rethreaded version, but if you don't, it may be something you should consider.  "Dutch" or "Cowboy" on left, "Standard" on right
You have the labels reversed.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 7, 2011, 5:02 PM)
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 7, 2011, 5:31 PM
Post #47 of 66
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sp115 wrote: There is at least one common variation of the simple bowline. I don't concern myself with difference because I tie in with the rethreaded version, but if you don't, it may be something you should consider. "Dutch" or "Cowboy" on left, "Standard" on right
Actually, in kernmantle ropes, these variations have essentially the same strength/security. BITD when we used hawser laid goldline ropes for climbing, the outer bowline (on right) was indeed more prone to loosening due to the Z-twist of the rope. An S-twist rope would work better with the outer bowline.
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sp115
Jan 7, 2011, 6:10 PM
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jt512 wrote: sp115 wrote: There is at least one common variation of the simple bowline. I don't concern myself with difference because I tie in with the rethreaded version, but if you don't, it may be something you should consider. You have the labels reversed. Jay
Sorry about that, good catch. Should be fixed above now.
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sp115
Jan 7, 2011, 6:16 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: sp115 wrote: There is at least one common variation of the simple bowline. I don't concern myself with difference because I tie in with the rethreaded version, but if you don't, it may be something you should consider. "Dutch" or "Cowboy" on left, "Standard" on right Actually, in kernmantle ropes, these variations have essentially the same strength/security. BITD when we used hawser laid goldline ropes for climbing, the outer bowline (on right) was indeed more prone to loosening due to the Z-twist of the rope. An S-twist rope would work better with the outer bowline.
I only mentioned the variation because I was curious as to how it might effect the Yosemite Finish version.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Jan 7, 2011, 6:20 PM)
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