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deadhorse
Dec 3, 2006, 11:18 PM
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Climbing a little while ago in franklin, WV (VA?) My climbing partner set off up a 5.10b/c he didn't know well. Two routes share the same start, and diverge at a traverse. He clipped a bolt that didn't belong on his route, and when he blew a move on the traverse (really, got stuck and dropped not fell) he swung hard against the wall instead of going down and being caught safely. He fell in a bad orientation also, which led to him partially flipping over, hitting the back of his head, and his tailbone.
video here:
edit- that link no longer works, updated link soon.
It took us a while to realize that bolt was the issue, since there weren't any other options visible. It is clear in restrospect that bolt wasn't for him (the rope took a 90 degree turn at it.) But this fall could have been much worse. As his belayer, I wondered if I'd given him a lot of slack if he would have been better off- there was so much rope drag i hardly felt his fall so I don't think that would have worked. Also, he would have hit the pillar lower, where it was even rougher.
(This post was edited by deadhorse on Dec 5, 2006, 8:44 AM)
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elnero
Dec 3, 2006, 11:47 PM
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Not trying to be an ass or get this off topic but... helmet next time?
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gunksgoer
Dec 3, 2006, 11:49 PM
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You clearly posted this because you wantsome sort of a response. Ill bite.
Frankly you guys are idiots. I would even go as far as to say youre retarded but thats offensive. Leading without a helmet is never the smartest idea to begin with, but it was a sport route on pretty solid rock and everything. The leader was also taking the whole deal a little to casually and didnt realize the pendulem potential. None of these things totally spell disaster but thats not the point.
The point is that the result was inches from being fatal, quite literally. You guys just laughed it off like a bunch of fucks. What happened is the exact scenario which has resulted in many leader fall deaths. The result wasnt the same however, just by a stroke of luck. If any little detail had been different you might have had a paralyzed guy hanging up side down there. Maybe even a dead one.
What if he had been seriously injured and was more than 100 feet up and couldnt be lowered? You obviously havent really looked at the bigger picture. My response might be server, but seriously, forget the crap. Count your blessings and view this as a lesson, not a joke.
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trenchdigger
Dec 3, 2006, 11:54 PM
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I don't really understand how he flipped so bad. Was his leg behind the rope? It seems like it would be obvious from the position of the bolt that a fall from there would smack you right into that rock, no?
Glad your friend wasn't seriously injured and hope he learned some valuable lessons from this.
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fancyclaps
Dec 4, 2006, 12:05 AM
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gunksgoer wrote: You clearly posted this because you wantsome sort of a response. Ill bite. Frankly you guys are idiots. I would even go as far as to say youre retarded but thats offensive. Leading without a helmet is never the smartest idea to begin with, but it was a sport route on pretty solid rock and everything. The leader was also taking the whole deal a little to casually and didnt realize the pendulem potential. None of these things totally spell disaster but thats not the point. The point is that the result was inches from being fatal, quite literally. You guys just laughed it off like a bunch of fucks. What happened is the exact scenario which has resulted in many leader fall deaths. The result wasnt the same however, just by a stroke of luck. If any little detail had been different you might have had a paralyzed guy hanging up side down there. Maybe even a dead one. What if he had been seriously injured and was more than 100 feet up and couldnt be lowered? You obviously havent really looked at the bigger picture. My response might be server, but seriously, forget the crap. Count your blessings and view this as a lesson, not a joke.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, there! I know it feels good to be righteous and all but, seriously think through things before castigating someone so severly. And yes, he did want a response, a constructive one, calling someone stupid is not constructive. Unless they do not see what they have done as stupid, it only succeeds in pointing out the obvious and making you look like a jackass for it.
First off, his actual post is not light-hearted nor joking at all, he is here to ask about how a bad fall could have been prevented and what they could have done differently.
Secondly, whenever people are in situations that scare or upset them deeply, they react oddly. Sometimes people laugh, sometimes they cry, sometimes they just sit there numbly. Just because they weren't automatically freaked out and upset does not mean they weren't taking it seriously, it means they were just processing what happened. I can think of many times when I have been or witnessed others deeply scared, and they did not react to it as you would expect.
For the OP, sorry bout the fall, maybe next time you hit something sketchy you leave a biner, or find a toprope before committing to it on lead.
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lemon_boy
Dec 4, 2006, 1:08 AM
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i don't really agree with gunksgoer. i actually think you are an idiot for blaming the bolt for your problems. how about taking some responsibility for yourselves and titling this post something like 'poor decisions and casual attitude lead to near miss'. oh yeah, i guess i do agree with gunksgoer.
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deadhorse
Dec 4, 2006, 1:14 AM
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I realize that this WAS a stupid mistake- I was the belayer here, not the climber. I found nothing funny about it, the voice on the video is some kid that tagged along. He was able to laugh parts of it off, but the video doesn't show the other parts, like how shaken he was.
I think he should have realized the pendulum potential as well, and after that I'm positive he'll be wearing a helmet.
I think this was our one 'get out of jail free' incident. I realize the potential severity of what happened, and you better believe every bit of that was running through my head as I saw him swinging, limp. There's really no way to justify this, we shouldn't have hopped on a route we didn't know well.
and to get him off, we did use a bail biner. I think he wanted to hang because he was tired ad couldn't downclimb (back climb) that part of the traverse, to get to the bolt to hang safely.
IN response to the way he fell- I'm really not sure why that happened. I do know that if he hadn't have flipped it wouldn't have been nearly as bad. I guess he wasn't expecting his waist to pivot immediately when he fell, and it capsized him.
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gunksgoer
Dec 4, 2006, 1:19 AM
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fancyclaps wrote: gunksgoer wrote: You clearly posted this because you wantsome sort of a response. Ill bite. Frankly you guys are idiots. I would even go as far as to say youre retarded but thats offensive. Leading without a helmet is never the smartest idea to begin with, but it was a sport route on pretty solid rock and everything. The leader was also taking the whole deal a little to casually and didnt realize the pendulem potential. None of these things totally spell disaster but thats not the point. The point is that the result was inches from being fatal, quite literally. You guys just laughed it off like a bunch of fucks. What happened is the exact scenario which has resulted in many leader fall deaths. The result wasnt the same however, just by a stroke of luck. If any little detail had been different you might have had a paralyzed guy hanging up side down there. Maybe even a dead one. What if he had been seriously injured and was more than 100 feet up and couldnt be lowered? You obviously havent really looked at the bigger picture. My response might be server, but seriously, forget the crap. Count your blessings and view this as a lesson, not a joke. Whoa, whoa, whoa, there! I know it feels good to be righteous and all but, seriously think through things before castigating someone so severly. And yes, he did want a response, a constructive one, calling someone stupid is not constructive. Unless they do not see what they have done as stupid, it only succeeds in pointing out the obvious and making you look like a jackass for it. First off, his actual post is not light-hearted nor joking at all, he is here to ask about how a bad fall could have been prevented and what they could have done differently. Secondly, whenever people are in situations that scare or upset them deeply, they react oddly. Sometimes people laugh, sometimes they cry, sometimes they just sit there numbly. Just because they weren't automatically freaked out and upset does not mean they weren't taking it seriously, it means they were just processing what happened. I can think of many times when I have been or witnessed others deeply scared, and they did not react to it as you would expect. For the OP, sorry bout the fall, maybe next time you hit something sketchy you leave a biner, or find a toprope before committing to it on lead.
Clearly you didnt watch the video. It went something like this:
1. Shot of the climbers fat lip from where his face hit the rock.
2. The climber falling and almost completely screwing himself up.
3. Stupid dialogue-
"Dude, you scewed up, almost died, and hit your head pretty bad. HAHAHA"
"Yeah, I did almost die. Pretty funny right! DURRR"
4. Close inspection of the gash in the climbers head, which could have easily been twice as deep.
The guys in the movie took it pretty lightheartedly. So light heartedly infact that im surprised they havent had an accident before. It would certainly improve the gene pool.
The most constructive thing to do would be to slap each of them. Maybe they could take it seriously for a second.
Edit: ok, so it appears that its sort of being taken seriously. I think the best thing to do would be to take the video down off youtube - its just an immature ego thing rite now. Then talk to the climber about the incident and discuss all the factors. Blaming the placement of a bolt really shows your lack of experience and maturity. You need to focus on the human error part and apply the lesson to future experiences.
(This post was edited by gunksgoer on Dec 4, 2006, 1:25 AM)
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cintune
Dec 4, 2006, 1:33 AM
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"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end."
- E. Whymper
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milominderbinder
Dec 4, 2006, 1:43 AM
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You mean accidents only happen to stupid people? Oh thank goodness, I was concerned that some unfortunate set of circumstances could doom me, or even some of the world's most renowned climbers, like Lynn Hill.
Lay off him a bit.
While what they did was not smart, and exceedingly avoidable, one post has already been made about how they took it more seriously than the video revealed, and another making a quite valid point that people react strangely and variably to close calls.
In reply to: It would certainly improve the gene pool.
You sure are a great guy. I could write something about how it would be satisfying for something bad to happen to you, or even maybe die (!), but that is just disgusting. And shameful. Think about what you actually say.
To the OP, and whoever, the incident is a learning experience. Something you don't let happen again.
(This post was edited by milominderbinder on Dec 4, 2006, 1:44 AM)
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gunksgoer
Dec 4, 2006, 4:03 AM
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I think your taking that little afterthought a bit too seriously. I might have been a little harsh but i threw in some sarcasm as well. Remember that tone isnt relevent on a forum so you need to take the grain of salt.
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cam
Dec 4, 2006, 4:18 AM
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deadhorse wrote: I realize that this WAS a stupid mistake- I was the belayer here, not the climber.
Do not for one second think that being the belayer relieves any responsability from your shoulders. As the belayer, its YOUR JOB to see things that the leader misses. Sometimes the excitment or anxiety of a lead can distract from the task at hand. You are your partner's reality check and vice versa. Don't ever forget that.
I once had a fortune cookie that read "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement."
I'm glad that you are both alright. He's fucking lucky and should count his blessings...and so should you.
It seems that the link the OP provided is for a private video. Can't view it.
(This post was edited by cam on Dec 4, 2006, 4:21 AM)
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uncasid
Dec 4, 2006, 4:45 AM
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Can't see it bud, un-private it.
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kman
Dec 4, 2006, 4:46 AM
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What's up with the video. I get the following message "This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender's friend request"
You post it on the web then make it unviewable? Can we have access to it please. I would like to see for my own eyes what happens. It might be useful for people to see, and to use as a learning experience.
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overlord
Dec 4, 2006, 3:16 PM
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cam wrote: deadhorse wrote: I realize that this WAS a stupid mistake- I was the belayer here, not the climber. Do not for one second think that being the belayer relieves any responsability from your shoulders. As the belayer, its YOUR JOB to see things that the leader misses. Sometimes the excitment or anxiety of a lead can distract from the task at hand. You are your partner's reality check and vice versa. Don't ever forget that.
ditto that. as i belayer i always warn my leader if he strays off route, clips wrong or does something else i think unsafe. and i always watch out for pendulums. they are imho even more dangerous than decking; decking situations are usually pretty obvious, but a pendulum can creep upon your blind side; plus when you deck, youll tend to do so with your legs first and a pendulum is much more likely to expose other parts of your body to impact, as this example clearly shows.
and you REALLY should know where the route goes BEFORE starting it. its called routefinding and is pretty easy in sport climbing. just follow the little shiny things.
well, i hope youve learned you lesson. it wouldve been a real shame if you didnt. and i hope some others learn from it as well.
as for the vid... id like to see it too.
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timm
Dec 4, 2006, 3:24 PM
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The OP must be tired of the whole thing and marked the video as private. I was able to view it yesterday. It was not a pretty fall. The way the leader smacked into the corner with his back and head, I'm surprised that we weren't looking at the video of a dead man. The leader is waaay lucky to even be alive if not at least seriously injured.
Edit: Hopefully the OP will open up video to be seen again. If you currently don't wear a helmet, this fall will have you re-considering that decision. I watched the fall once and then couldn't bring myself to watch it again.
(This post was edited by timm on Dec 4, 2006, 3:37 PM)
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j_ung
Dec 4, 2006, 3:28 PM
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deadhorse wrote: Climbing a little while ago in franklin, WV (VA?) My climbing partner set off up a 5.10b/c he didn't know well. Two routes share the same start, and diverge at a traverse. He clipped a bolt that didn't belong on his route, and when he blew a move on the traverse (really, got stuck and dropped not fell) he swung hard against the wall instead of going down and being caught safely. He fell in a bad orientation also, which led to him partially flipping over, hitting the back of his head, and his tailbone. video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ESy-zjSR5o It took us a while to realize that bolt was the issue, since there weren't any other options visible. It is clear in restrospect that bolt wasn't for him (the rope took a 90 degree turn at it.) But this fall could have been much worse. As his belayer, I wondered if I'd given him a lot of slack if he would have been better off- there was so much rope drag i hardly felt his fall so I don't think that would have worked. Also, he would have hit the pillar lower, where it was even rougher.
Without echoing the tone of some of the posts above, I will echo the advice. Though the leader is ultimately responsible for his own actions, if I can see my climber, I try make it a point to draw attention to potential safety issues. Bad fall potential seems to be one of those things that the belayer can sometimes see easier than the climber.
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timm
Dec 4, 2006, 4:10 PM
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gandolf wrote: I think the video was made private due to Gunkgoers request - In reply to: I think the best thing to do would be to take the video down off youtube - its just an immature ego thing rite now.
IMHO, I think that the OP can do a service by allowing it to be viewed. I don't think that it's an ego thing anymore given the critism that the OP has gotten.
I think the video shows the importance of wearing a helmet and how nasty pendulum falls can be and that they shouldn't be taken lightly.
Just my $0.02.
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gunksgoer
Dec 4, 2006, 6:16 PM
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gandolf wrote: I think the video was made private due to Gunkgoers request - In reply to: I think the best thing to do would be to take the video down off youtube - its just an immature ego thing rite now.
Maybe, but I think I tried to watch it again before i made that post and it was already private. The reason I said taking it down might be a good idea is because the video treated the accident in a very nonchalant way and misrepresented the ordeal. Much could be learned from the clip of the fall itself. Its a text book example of what NOT to do.
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caughtinside
Dec 4, 2006, 7:18 PM
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the bolt wasn't off route. the climber was off route.
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bigfatrock
Dec 4, 2006, 7:36 PM
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You don't have to be off route for this to happen. This past weekend my partner was just above his bolt and decided to take, it was a very shoft fall but was enough to flip him upside down. Somehow he flipped back upright before any part of his body hit rock. He was lucky as hell. It can happen to anybody.
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redpoint73
Dec 4, 2006, 7:41 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: I don't really understand how he flipped so bad. Was his leg behind the rope?
Your leg does not have to be behind the rope in order for you to get flipped. I can't see the video (too late on that one!), so I don't know what happened in this case. However, I've seen it happen a few times. Here is one possibility: If one of your feet slips (or is not on the wall for some other reason) and you let go with your hands, your one foot that is still on can make you cartwheel upside down. This will usually only happen if you are not prepared for the fall.
Another way you can fall upside down without getting your leg behind the rope is by getting your center of gravity to far back, especially on an overhang. This is similar to the previous example, except you are spinning backwards, as opposed to the side.
Either of these cases can often be avoided by being ready for the fall, and pushing away from the wall a bit before you come off. Practice falls, in a controlled situation, will train you to keep your body in the proper position before/while falling.
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cintune
Dec 4, 2006, 9:07 PM
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I got to see the vid and freeze-framed through it a couple of times to try to figure out what happened there. It looked like both his hands came off, then his feet slipped as he fell back and he flipped almost immediately. Although good falling technique is important, in this case it looked like he might just as easily have kneecapped or face planted under that particular roof. Flipping might have saved him even more hurt. Also looked like his chalkbag took some of the impact, there's a big puff of white powder right when he hits. Only goes to show that every fall is different, there's really no way to generalize.
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deschamps1000
Dec 4, 2006, 9:25 PM
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I won't give you much crap, you've gotten enough. I will say this... Franklin is an access-sensitive area and has been for years. It is private land and has been closed before. A serious injury could easily get that place closed.
Keep this in mind in the future.
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majid_sabet
Dec 4, 2006, 10:12 PM
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can you email me your video, let me take a look at it.
Thanks
Majid_sabet@hotmail.com
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drfelatio
Dec 4, 2006, 11:22 PM
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What on God's green earth was that?!?!!??
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feanor007
Dec 4, 2006, 11:47 PM
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cam wrote: deadhorse wrote: I realize that this WAS a stupid mistake- I was the belayer here, not the climber. Do not for one second think that being the belayer relieves any responsability from your shoulders. As the belayer, its YOUR JOB to see things that the leader misses. Sometimes the excitment or anxiety of a lead can distract from the task at hand. You are your partner's reality check and vice versa. Don't ever forget that.
i wish i had trophies today.
also, i didn't think you could get off route in sport climbs, if you can clip the bolt i think that's pretty strong evidence your on a route. maybe not the one you expected but a route
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phillygoat
Dec 5, 2006, 12:29 AM
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bigfatrock wrote: You don't have to be off route for this to happen. This past weekend my partner was just above his bolt and decided to take, it was a very shoft fall but was enough to flip him upside down. Somehow he flipped back upright before any part of his body hit rock. He was lucky as hell. It can happen to anybody.
I hope to god this is a troll.
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tradrenn
Dec 5, 2006, 12:37 AM
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We all make stupid mistakes that's what makes us humans. I hope that you will learn from your bad experience and don't let it happend again. In future consider bailing off.
A little advise:
Keep in mind that almost every route has a NO FALL ZONE.
Happy Climbing ( in future )
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deadhorse
Dec 5, 2006, 8:43 AM
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yeah sorry about the vid link- I'm re editing it for better compression. Its tricky to keep vid quality high while under their set limit of 100MB. Anyways- in response to some of these-
"As a belayer I'm not relieved of any responsibilty"
To which I answer- exactly, which is why I was so upset about this. In this instance, I couldn't be the lookout guy, he'd been to this crag before and I hadn't. We had a guidebook and it was very vague abot where the ttwo climbs diverge.
"The bolt wasn't off route the climber was"
No, sorry, the bolt was off route. This is the fork where the routes diverge.
As for the fall- Like I mentioned earlier- It wasn't a true fall, it was a drop- which made it's result ever more shocking. He got stuck and wanted to hangdog, and let go. In the full res video it's more clear, but he falls pretty much with an upright body position, and it flips him as soon as he swings. That's happened to me before also, on a TR route where it meandered real far from below the anchor.
I should have a re-edited version up soon. And i really want to make it clear, that this is NOT for shock value. I want to learn as much as is possible about why this happened and how to prevent it. Even knowing what I know now, if I found myself in the same position belaying him, and he was exactly where he was (off-bolt and all) I don't know what I would do differently- At that point I suppose it was too late. But maybe there is a belay technique that would have helped here?
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deadhorse
Dec 5, 2006, 8:53 AM
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Yeah just a clarification for you gunksgoer on that clip-
The video intro is a clip that is completely unrelated, that is not the climber, and he doesn't have a fat lip (he does, have big lips though?). It got in there with bad editing, and bad editing alone.
He did not hit his face, like I said, the back of his head, and his back. Thank god.
I realize your resent for what you take to be lightheartedness, but how much of that is directed at that kid's narration that shot the video? I'm not even in it, and the climber was obviously stirred. He thought he was in shock, and we left early. Luckily, he has been able to get back on the walls, which I think is admirable regardless of whether or not it was his mistake which led to this accident.
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hyhuu
Dec 5, 2006, 2:19 PM
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deadhorse wrote: y "The bolt wasn't off route the climber was" No, sorry, the bolt was off route. This is the fork where the routes diverge.
Your OP stated otherwise "It is clear in restrospect that bolt wasn't for him (the rope took a 90 degree turn at it.)"
Just curious, which route is that and no I haven't seen the video.
hyhuu
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jt512
Dec 5, 2006, 3:56 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: You don't have to be off route for this to happen. This past weekend my partner was just above his bolt and decided to take...
Leader (above his bolt): TAKE! DURR!
Belayer (pulling leader off his stance): Gotcha Dood! DURR!
Jay
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jt512
Dec 5, 2006, 4:09 PM
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To borrow a phrase from aviation: this accident was caused by failure to maintain situational awareness. Think ahead. Know where your next pro is. Assess the risk before committing to the section. See dangers coming. Don't commit to a dangerous section unless you are either confident you can make it through the risk or you know you can reverse the section. In the present case, reversing the traverse before getting too pumped to hang on would have prevented the accident.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 5, 2006, 4:16 PM)
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jt512
Dec 5, 2006, 4:14 PM
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deadhorse wrote: and the climber was obviously stirred.
Shaken, not stirred -- the climber, that is.
Jay
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alexmac
Dec 5, 2006, 5:58 PM
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Posts: 550
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Okay, I missed the whole video and so sport or trad, traverse and not protecting it ?
No helmet, thats the climbing partners fault for even belaying someone
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sgauss
Dec 5, 2006, 6:11 PM
Post #39 of 42
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Registered: Nov 30, 2006
Posts: 138
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Have y'all noticed you're beating a deadhorse?
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gunksgoer
Dec 5, 2006, 6:18 PM
Post #40 of 42
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Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 1290
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deadhorse wrote: "The bolt wasn't off route the climber was" No, sorry, the bolt was off route. This is the fork where the routes diverge.
I hate to keep ragging on you, but if the bolt was "off route" its completely the climbers fault for clipping it. Some mean off-route bolt didnt clip itself to the rope. The lead climber made an error setting up his protection system.
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deadhorse
Dec 5, 2006, 9:52 PM
Post #41 of 42
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Registered: Jun 26, 2006
Posts: 241
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Absolutely, it was his fault for clipping it, but in terms of hindsight being 20/20 and all, there was really no way to know. It seemed strange that it would take such a hard turn, but the next bolt was obscured from his vision by that lip, and my vision b/c it was 65 ft up. Even when we lowered him it was hard to tell what he should have clipped. The bolt he clipped was about 8 horizontal feet from the bolt he should have used.
In a case like this, I guess you can only do the climb if you have somebody with you that's done it, and knows the bolt sequencing. I'm sure if i'd been up there, and had no knowledge otherwise, I would have made the same mistake.
For those of you not yet seen the video the climb is decompression sickness 5.10b/c
I'll get the re-edited version up soon. (very busy w/ final exams right now)
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caughtinside
Dec 5, 2006, 9:58 PM
Post #42 of 42
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
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deadhorse wrote: "The bolt wasn't off route the climber was" No, sorry, the bolt was off route. This is the fork where the routes diverge.
No, the climber was off route. The bolt was on route. The problem was that it was on a DIFFERENT route. your climber left the intended route, by climbing off-route, onto a different route.
You don't hear about these routefinding dilemmas on sport climbs too often... despite the fact that it is common to not always be able to see the next bolt from below (hidden above a bulge, etc.)
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