How many red point attempts are you willing to make on a route (readily accessible and aesthetically pleasing). When and why do you give up?

My normal approach is to just man up and onsight it instead of wanking around on the same route all day only climb routes that are easy and safe enough to comfortably onsight.

I'm not really into redpointing, but I'll make as many onsight attempts as it takes to get a clean ascent. It's tough because I can never use the same belayer twice.

I'm not really into redpointing, but I'll make as many onsight attempts as it takes to get a clean ascent. It's tough because I can never use the same belayer twice.

What are you talking about? You only get one onsight attempt.

Apparantly you need to elaborate. What does having a different belayer have to do with it?

How many red point attempts are you willing to make on a route (readily accessible and aesthetically pleasing). When and why do you give up?

Apparantly you need to elaborate. What does having a different belayer have to do with it?

YMMD!

Keep on fighting the good fight!
Them onsight cheaters need to be culled!

qwert

fixt (at no extra charge)

It's amusing that almost everyone in the thread defines a redpoint as a route that they tried to onsight, and failed. There's a strong onsight bias at this website.

Jay

It's amusing that almost everyone in the thread defines a redpoint as a route that they tried to onsight, and failed. There's a strong onsight bias at this website.

Jay

well, working multi-pitch trad routes doesn't seem to me to be the norm.

I'll usually give a route 3 tries per day. If I feel like I'm close to sending, then maybe a fourth. Anymore then 3 then I usually start to make negative progress and get bored/frustrated.

Never give up! Just come back stronger.

P.S. Projecting routes above you're onsight is the best way to drastically improve your climbing. A wise man once told me that I should be projecting routes a number grade above my best onsight.

A wise man Canadian once told me that I should be projecting routes a number grade above my best onsight.

believe me now?

It's amusing that almost everyone in the thread defines a redpoint as a route that they tried to onsight, and failed. There's a strong onsight bias at this website.

Jay

For those of you who are bringing up multipitch trad, someone once told me there is no redpointing in trad. That's what makes it "trad." Not sure I totally agree with that, but when there is a discussion on redpointing, it is pertaining to sport.

That is wrong. Even some of the more pure hard trad lines at the Gunks and in Yosemite were technically "redpoints," even if they term did not exist back then. The big difference was that in the early days it was considered bad style if you did not lower from your falling point, pull the rope, and re-lead the pitch. But whether un-onsighted routes went up that way, or through intended hangdogging, both would qualify today as "redpoints."

By the literal definition, maybe. But redpointing, as a definition is a sport climbing term. If climbing is all one language, then maybe I agree with you, but are they? Who decided that redpointing must also apply to trad climbing? Maybe it's sprad!

I am well aware of the history of some hard "trad" climbs. I am not taking anything away form the FA's of them. I am merely suggesting that many people believe (I'm on the fence) that it's only "trad" if it's ground up onsight. That doesn't mean you can't go back and get a climb clean and be damn proud of it. It's just that when people have a serious discussion about "redpointing" tactics, they are talking sport.

Josh

Yeah, like I said, many ascents that even the most stalwart "purists" would call "trad" were done in ways that we would not call "projecting," or "redpoints." And it even the debate between fixed or removable gear has long been pretty contradictory-- how many onsight, ground-up, trad ascents utilized fixed pitons from past aid ascents?

However, if you accept that "trad" climbing in general refers to "removable gear placed on lead," which is what it largely means TODAY, project-style redpointing is very much a part of the game, whether in gritstone headpoints, multiple free attempts at an FA bigwall on Baffin Island, or with a well-travelled single pitch crack line.

Yeah, I agree......BUT, would you bring up a discussion about redpointing referring to your recent trip to the GUnks? hmmmmmmm?

I am merely suggesting that many people believe (I'm on the fence) that it's only "trad" if it's ground up onsight.

In the old days, ... [m]any a "free first ascent" was done yo-yo style, with climbers taking turns climbing higher than their partner, placing another piece of gear, calling off and lowering, until one of them actually finished the pitch without falling off.

No knowledgeable climber would claim that only onsighting counts as "trad." As Jeff Smoot writes in the introduction to Rock Climbing Washington:


Many FFAs in Joshua Tree were done in this style, as well.

Jay

No knowledgeable climber would claim that only onsighting counts as "trad." As Jeff Smoot writes in the introduction to Rock Climbing Washington:


Many FFAs in Joshua Tree were done in this style, as well.

Jay

But I consider that different than redpointing. The next guy is still going into uncharted territory, correct? Unless you go from bottom to top clean, you lower off and let the next guy try.

Semantics aside, my only real point (which I believe you agree with) was that "redpoint" tactics are mainly (if not entirely) a sport climbing discussion.

Josh

But I consider that different than redpointing.

Semantics aside, my only real point (which I believe you agree with) was that "redpoint" tactics are mainly (if not entirely) a sport climbing discussion.

In the end, I see ethics boiling down to "don't harm the rock," and I see style as boiling down to "be honest about what you've done."

Quoted for truth!

That was not my point. You said that unless a route was climbed on sight, it was not "trad." That is false.

Jay

So if a guy climbs halfway up a route, gets stymied but doesn't ever hang on gear, backs off, and comes back the next day and sends - is it a redpoint or an onsight?

And that is not what i said. I said many people believe that. I said I was on the fence.

I was merely suggesting that redpointing as a discussion is the realm of sport climbing.

My mistake. You did say that many people believe that in order for an ascent to be "trad" it has to be onsight. And I'll repeat my original response: No. No knowledgeable climber believes that. It is patently false. Yo-yo ascents are not on-sight ascents, and yet are accepted free "trad" ascents. Guidebooks list FAs done in that style as free ascents, without qualification. You have no reason to sit on the fence about this.


That claim, as phrased, is even less clear than it was the last time I said it was unclear. I have no idea what the phrase "redpointing as a discussion" means. Redpointing is not a discussion; it is a climbing style. If you define a redpoint to be any free ascent, other than a flash, then the term includes yo-yo ascents, and hence at least one type of redpoint ascent qualifies as a traditional climbing style, even if the word "redpoint" originated in a sport context. I have no idea if that addresses your claim or not, because your claim seems to be more ambiguous with each restatement of it.

Jay

We've had this discussion before. If you don't weight the rope, it's legit. Even if you fall and crater before the rope catches you, you can get back on the climb, send, and claim an onsight.

Nice work, AB.

Jay

Are we having a discussion about redpointing?

If you guys really want some entertainment, check out this thread on trad FAs:

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=12069

Pay particular attention to the last page. Usually I go to that site to get away form the rc.knob grommets, but I failed in that today.

Yes. What isn't clear is whether we are having a discussion about sport climbing, specifically, or not. I'm not going to keep guessing what your claim is, if you even have one. If you'd care to make one, and word it unambiguously, I'd be happy to discuss it.

Jay

wtf is that called?

It's not a question of giving up, it's a question of wasting time. I would rather do as many new climbs as I can rather than spend a significant amount of time on one climb.

Well, for no other reason beyond the fact that I wouldn't know what to call it, when I do a route clean after the first time of not doing it clean, regardless if it is trad or sport, I call it a redpoint...even in the 'Gunks.

I guess redpointing probably came from sport, but I'm not so sure it can't apply to trad, too. For me, it is simply a clean attempt on a route after a failed attempt. If that isn't a redpoint because it took place on a trad route, then what would it be otherwise?

...We're going to be at the Gunks again over Columbus Day weekend again, if you guys want to meet up!

I think your logic is faulty.

Projecting a route will make you a stonger climber.... The stronger you are the more options you'll have for trying new routes.

We're going to be at the Gunks again over Columbus Day weekend again, if you guys want to meet up!

Can I come too? Please? Can I? Can I?

Curt

Can I come too? Please? Can I? Can I?

Curt

Until Curt responded to you, I missed that one. I think we might be down there. If you want to meet up for drinks let me know.

Josh

Red Pointing actually has a longer history. Routes in France were often established as aid lines in the early part of the century. Eventually, just like in America, routes started to go free. When a route was free, a red dot was painted at the start of the route. (Regardless of it being a gear route or a bolted route). The red dot was carried over to when people put up new routes too. Once the route was freed, a red dot was added to base. (In America, climber tied a piece of string ot taped the first bolt till the line was sent.Still do for some strange reason)

If you define a redpoint to be any free ascent, other than a flash,
Jay

Hey now. Don’t get your boxers in a bunch. I’m not saying what you enjoy is faulty. Nor am I making a personal attack against you.

I'm just suggesting you should give projecting a chance. It’s a really challenging yet rewarding process that in the end will make you improve as a climber.

My biggest motivation in climbing is to improve. Projecting is great because you get to see measurable improvement. I think it is such a cool process...You get on a route that you can barely do the moves. Then after a lot of work and some frustration, you start to make progress and start to believe that you can do it. After some more work and frustration the route starts to feel easy and before you know it you're clipping the chains.

I think the problem is that a lot of people never get past the initial phase of projecting which is the most frustrating. When you’re not making much progress and you feel like your wasting your time because you'll never be able to do the route. Its times like these that you need to be psyched on the baby steps (one better foot placement, a new high point even it is just one hold higher)

Blueeyedclimber… by all means do whatever you enjoy! I can understand that motivations for climbing might be different than mine. But how could you not want to improve?

Can I come too? Please? Can I? Can I?

Curt

Thanks for telling me that what I enjoy out of climbing is faulty. Would you like to comment on my character flaws as well. Perhaps you would like to tell me that I made a poor career choice.

It wasn't about logic, it was about what I enjoy. I do not like to spend a lot of time on one climb. What don't you understand?

Josh

Hell yes! Book plane ticket now!