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brendeneng
Nov 6, 2009, 10:52 PM
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I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Brenden
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colatownkid
Nov 6, 2009, 11:12 PM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Brenden Accidents in North American Mountaineering. Years of information. I'm sure there's some involving a guided expedition. Also, any of the relatively recent stuff on K2, Everest, etc.
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ClimbClimb
Nov 7, 2009, 3:33 AM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you haven't already read it, for a detailed examination of a terrible tragedy and some viewpoints on possible pitfalls of guided expeditions, Jon Krakauer's "Into Thin Air" is a classic, of course, and a natural starting point. (As an aside, it helps to know that Krakauer is not just some writer, apparently he still climbs 5.11/5.12 at 50+ and is an accomplished mountaineer in his own right).
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billykent24
Nov 7, 2009, 5:53 AM
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Where's Majid???
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sungam
Nov 7, 2009, 10:27 AM
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billykent24 wrote: Where's Majid??? Climbing around the great trango tower.
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dlintz
Nov 7, 2009, 1:29 PM
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sungam wrote: billykent24 wrote: Where's Majid??? Climbing around the great trango tower. Looking to bag the FA complete traverse? Solid Majid!! d.
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socalclimber
Nov 7, 2009, 2:34 PM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Brenden This should be interesting. Will you publish your paper here when you're done? I think you'll have to look hard. Guide/client accidents are fairly rare, but they do indeed occur. Clients getting injured on a guides watch can be a career ender. I think you will find that most of the deaths and accidents tend to occur on big mountains rather than the more main stream crag areas. The most important skill in guiding has little to do with your climbing ability (say 5.12) as opposed to your skills in risk assessment and management. Please post your research and sources when you're done. As a guide, I'd love to read it.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 7, 2009, 2:35 PM)
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taydude
Nov 7, 2009, 3:48 PM
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From the handful of guides I've seen outdoors and the numerous gyms offering outdoor classes you'd think that there would be more injuries reported involving guides/ gym groups.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 7, 2009, 4:25 PM
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Didn't the Bird get hurt pretty bad while guideing in the Tetons?
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socalclimber
Nov 7, 2009, 5:35 PM
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taydude wrote: From the handful of guides I've seen outdoors and the numerous gyms offering outdoor classes you'd think that there would be more injuries reported involving guides/ gym groups. Why?
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hacksaw
Nov 7, 2009, 5:52 PM
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No, I think the Bird was the guide when the guy had the accident in the Chounaird harness that came unbuckled...
(This post was edited by hacksaw on Nov 7, 2009, 5:55 PM)
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maldaly
Nov 7, 2009, 6:36 PM
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Chouinard harness didn't COME unbuckled. Client went to take a leak and forgot to buckle it back up or didn't get it buckled correctly. Kim Schmitz was guiding in the Tetons and was pulled off by his client. Took an 80' grounder. I think Mugs Stump was guiding when the crevasse lip collapsed, killing him. Craig Luebben was killed while training for a Guide's exam. Lot's of other stories like that. Guiding is like climbing with a partner who is always on the lookout for clever and unexpected ways to kill you. If you really want to plumb a deep well, dig up all the accident reports that involve Boy Scout climbing trips. Climb safe, Mal
(This post was edited by maldaly on Nov 7, 2009, 6:38 PM)
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hacksaw
Nov 7, 2009, 7:18 PM
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maldaly wrote: Chouinard harness didn't COME unbuckled. Client went to take a leak and forgot to buckle it back up or didn't get it buckled correctly. Mal You are correct. I should have taken longer to write my answer. Sorry.
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johnwesely
Nov 7, 2009, 8:37 PM
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maldaly wrote: Guiding is like climbing with a partner who is always on the lookout for clever and unexpected ways to kill you. If I were a guide, I would make the my signature.
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Lazlo
Nov 7, 2009, 8:50 PM
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johnwesely wrote: maldaly wrote: Guiding is like climbing with a partner who is always on the lookout for clever and unexpected ways to kill you. If I were a guide, I would make the my signature. Heh.
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shockabuku
Nov 8, 2009, 4:08 AM
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I witnessed one. Turned out to be minor but didn't seem like it at first. It was at Poison Ivy Wall, West Point, NY about June or July, 1994. Local news guy was shooting some video of climbing. He was on a TR belayed by a guide while parallel to him was a climber being belayed by another person. I still don't know exactly what happened. There were two other people at the top of the cliff so maybe they set the cameraman's rope up from the top and tied him in up there and lowered the other end down to the guide. Whatever, it turned out the ropes were of different length and the short rope was the one the camera guy was on. While lowering the cameraman the end of the rope went through the guide's hand, through the belay device, and the cameraman fell flat on his back from maybe 20 feet up or so. Based on the amount of pain he appeared to be in I thought he was pretty jacked up but he ended up checking out of the hospital the next day (or so I heard). Next time I saw the guide he was pulling harnesses out of the back of his car at the parking lot at the Gunks.
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rgold
Nov 8, 2009, 4:51 AM
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There have been several guided accidents in the Tetons over the years. The most recent ones I remember was a rappelling fatality that occurred after the guide retied an EDK between client descents and the knot came untied while a client was rappelling. There was another one that didn't prove to be very serious, amazingly enough, when a guide was belaying a client directly on an anchor utilizing in-situ sling material that broke. My experiences guiding BITD convinced me of the truth of Mal's crack about clients looking for clever ways to get the guide killed. I got especially good at stopping mid-move when no rope was forthcoming from my client's less-than-proficient belay. A second issue is that many clients, although quite reasonably skilled at rock climbing, often have exceptionally little ability to move safely on easy ground, with the result that you can absolutely never be sure they won't fall on fourth, third, or even second-class territory. This observation comes from before the time of climbing gyms and sport climbing, which can only have made the discrepancy greater, and it is no wonder that guides nowadays put some effort into developing short-roping technique. Some lapses are inexcusable, however. A guide who lets the rope run through his device and drops a client is simply unfit for the job.
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taydude
Nov 8, 2009, 6:55 AM
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hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's
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socalclimber
Nov 8, 2009, 12:29 PM
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taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period.
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juliacoreyburns
Nov 12, 2009, 4:08 AM
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you should read Accidents in North American Mountaineering. the American Alpine Club publishes it each year. i believe you can order it (if not access it) from their website. it would be a great resource- and it is qute interesting to read.
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skiclimb
Nov 16, 2009, 2:47 AM
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A guides job is to keep everyone safe. A clients job is to get everyone killed. Some people are better at theirs jobs than others.
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pfwein
Nov 16, 2009, 4:08 AM
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maldaly wrote: Craig Luebben was killed while training for a Guide's exam. Lot's of other stories like that. I'm having a hard time seeing how that's relevant to anything. Can't really blame non-existent clients.
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treemonkey
Nov 16, 2009, 4:43 AM
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Thanks for the new Signature
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cfnubbler
Nov 16, 2009, 2:14 PM
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socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period. With all due respect, I disagree. I know of several incidents where guides have been caught by clients' belays. If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying. What I take to be the spirit of your point is valid: Guides should do everything in their power not to fall when working. We are not payed to whip left and right, possibly get hurt and strand our clients, ect. This is a fundamental part of risk management and client care and comfort. That said, clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so. Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills.
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socalclimber
Nov 16, 2009, 9:42 PM
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cfnubbler wrote: socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period. With all due respect, I disagree. I know of several incidents where guides have been caught by clients' belays. If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying. What I take to be the spirit of your point is valid: Guides should do everything in their power not to fall when working. We are not payed to whip left and right, possibly get hurt and strand our clients, ect. This is a fundamental part of risk management and client care and comfort. That said, clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so. Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills. I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I just tend to be more extreme in my expression of my thoughts than others. While I agree it's important to teach a client to belay properly, I don't think it's smart to start leading with a client who's just learning to belay (unless there is a backup belayer). To do otherwise is foolish. Once YOU (the guide) leaves the ground, you no longer have control over what the client is doing. You can bark orders all you like, but it's of little use when you 50 feet off the ground. This includes intermediate clients as well. Most of my partners/friends are big names in the yosemite lore of guides. I have heard horror stories of what clients are capable of once you leave the ground. One in particular (think Yosemite Facelift) and you'll know who I am talking about, told me a tail of a client who started tearing down the anchor in the name of efficiency while he was just finishing a pitch (still on belay). If you think this guys is careless or not capable of assessing his clients then you're just being foolish for the sake of argument. I'm not willing to take this risk with clients. I'll lead, but I'm not trusting them. Hence, why I only lead routes I'm very comfortable on. This is why I say that you might as well be soloing. I say all of this because a big part of risk management is being able to assess yourself and what you are getting the client into. It's every bit as important as assessing and training the client. That's proper risk management.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 16, 2009, 9:47 PM)
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skiclimb
Nov 18, 2009, 5:54 PM
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socalclimber wrote: cfnubbler wrote: socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period. With all due respect, I disagree. I know of several incidents where guides have been caught by clients' belays. If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying. What I take to be the spirit of your point is valid: Guides should do everything in their power not to fall when working. We are not payed to whip left and right, possibly get hurt and strand our clients, ect. This is a fundamental part of risk management and client care and comfort. That said, clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so. Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills. I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I just tend to be more extreme in my expression of my thoughts than others. While I agree it's important to teach a client to belay properly, I don't think it's smart to start leading with a client who's just learning to belay (unless there is a backup belayer). To do otherwise is foolish. Once YOU (the guide) leaves the ground, you no longer have control over what the client is doing. You can bark orders all you like, but it's of little use when you 50 feet off the ground. This includes intermediate clients as well. Most of my partners/friends are big names in the yosemite lore of guides. I have heard horror stories of what clients are capable of once you leave the ground. One in particular (think Yosemite Facelift) and you'll know who I am talking about, told me a tail of a client who started tearing down the anchor in the name of efficiency while he was just finishing a pitch (still on belay). If you think this guys is careless or not capable of assessing his clients then you're just being foolish for the sake of argument. I'm not willing to take this risk with clients. I'll lead, but I'm not trusting them. Hence, why I only lead routes I'm very comfortable on. This is why I say that you might as well be soloing. I say all of this because a big part of risk management is being able to assess yourself and what you are getting the client into. It's every bit as important as assessing and training the client. That's proper risk management. This is the identical mindset I was trained to have by the senior guides when I was an apprentice. This was very much stressed in the old AMGA early days during instruction and testing. I can't imagine that it has changed. Its a core fundemental principle of guiding and has been stated many ways. From old rude sayings to more complex serious discussions. Guiding is very different in key ways than going out with your buddies to climb. As a young climber I didn't enjoy guiding. Guiding is rewarding and fun if you have the maturity to truly enjoy sharing the climbing experience with people. But not if your main focus is climbing itself.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Nov 18, 2009, 5:55 PM)
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jcrew
Nov 18, 2009, 11:19 PM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Brenden on the FA of the Matterhorn.....the core-ass local guides were pulled off by some english punter.
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rgold
Nov 19, 2009, 2:58 AM
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cfnubbler wrote: If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying...clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so...Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills. Postulating that every novice belayer's lapses are the fault of the teacher defines the problem out of existence without in any way reflecting reality. Belaying takes time and practice to learn. It involves a host of intuitive and situational reactions that have to be almost instantaneous, as well as rope management skills that quite a few moderately experienced climbers aren't all that good at. It may be a "fundamental skill," but that does not mean can be acquired without a lot of practice. Surely good instruction is critical, but it is hardly sufficient, and guides, by the nature of the job, go out with people who haven't had enough practice. If a hold breaks completely unexpectedly or they get clocked by a rock, of course the guide hopes the client belayer will stop the fall in an appropriate distance. But a guide who climbs in a way or at a level that might produce a leader fall is the one who is at fault in my book. I think the soloing mentality, with all that it implies about full control and complete reversibility, is the only appropriate mindset for a guide who would prefer to both stay off the injured list and eventually die of old age.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 19, 2009, 3:47 PM
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socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: From the handful of guides I've seen outdoors and the numerous gyms offering outdoor classes you'd think that there would be more injuries reported involving guides/ gym groups. Why? It depends on what we are defining a guide as. Anyone who teaches climbing? This would include certified and uncertified guides, gym instructors, summer camps, outdoor adventure programs, etc. The rate of accidents and type of accidents would most likely be different for all of these. One thing that also might skew the results is how an accident is reported. I know of at least one incidence of an accident happening and then the program in question did not report it accurately. If clients are putting their safety in the hands of someone else, and then they are hurt or killed, it can be quite embarrassing at the least, and career-ending and lawsuit-inducing at worst. I wonder how much of THAT goes on. Josh
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socalclimber
Nov 19, 2009, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: But a guide who climbs in a way or at a level that might produce a leader fall is the one who is at fault in my book. I agree 100%!
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socalclimber
Nov 19, 2009, 9:43 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: From the handful of guides I've seen outdoors and the numerous gyms offering outdoor classes you'd think that there would be more injuries reported involving guides/ gym groups. Why? It depends on what we are defining a guide as. Anyone who teaches climbing? This would include certified and uncertified guides, gym instructors, summer camps, outdoor adventure programs, etc. The rate of accidents and type of accidents would most likely be different for all of these. One thing that also might skew the results is how an accident is reported. I know of at least one incidence of an accident happening and then the program in question did not report it accurately. If clients are putting their safety in the hands of someone else, and then they are hurt or killed, it can be quite embarrassing at the least, and career-ending and lawsuit-inducing at worst. I wonder how much of THAT goes on. Josh These are great observations.
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cfnubbler
Nov 19, 2009, 10:38 PM
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rgold wrote: cfnubbler wrote: If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying...clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so...Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills. Postulating that every novice belayer's lapses are the fault of the teacher defines the problem out of existence without in any way reflecting reality. Belaying takes time and practice to learn. It involves a host of intuitive and situational reactions that have to be almost instantaneous, as well as rope management skills that quite a few moderately experienced climbers aren't all that good at. It may be a "fundamental skill," but that does not mean can be acquired without a lot of practice. Surely good instruction is critical, but it is hardly sufficient, and guides, by the nature of the job, go out with people who haven't had enough practice. If a hold breaks completely unexpectedly or they get clocked by a rock, of course the guide hopes the client belayer will stop the fall in an appropriate distance. But a guide who climbs in a way or at a level that might produce a leader fall is the one who is at fault in my book. I think the soloing mentality, with all that it implies about full control and complete reversibility, is the only appropriate mindset for a guide who would prefer to both stay off the injured list and eventually die of old age. Fair enough, and you can be sure that I do take a "leader must not fall" approach when I'm working, because I consider it to be both my responsibility and in my best interests to do so. I am realistic about my clients' abilities. That said, I was not postulating that all novice belay errors are the fault of the teacher, nor that all the nuances of excellent belay skills can be quickly mastered regardless of the teacher's skill or the client's aptitude. I am postulating that a novice can be taught basic belay skills that offer a degree of security quite likely to exceed that which one might find truly soloing, especially if I do my job properly as an instructor and guide. Thorough belay instruction,thoughtful client positioning and anchoring, and clean rope management can greatly enhance the quality of a client belay. Why do we bother placing gear on non-traversing routes if we really believe we're soloing? Is it for client perception of safety alone? I am uncomfortable with the attitude that often seems to come hand in hand with the common "soloing when guiding" remarks. To me, they frequently seem tied more to a lack of respect for the client than a carefully reasoned assessment of what might constitute realistic performance expectations for that client. I often hear a disparaging edge to comments about clients, and this is merely one example. Do I expect them to have as solid belay skills as an experienced partner? Of course not. But they are not hopeless fools of no use at all. Rich, I have enormous respect for you, and I'm not implying your reasons for your perspective are those I've questioned above. But I am certain many folks mindlessly repeat the "soloing when guiding" mantra without actually thinking it through.
(This post was edited by cfnubbler on Nov 20, 2009, 2:34 PM)
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rgold
Nov 19, 2009, 11:35 PM
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Ok, I understand where you're coming from; we don't actually disagree about anything. And I didn't mean to heap generic scorn on all clients, although it could be argued that I did exactly that. There's an ancient Jewish saying, "pray as if everything depends on God, act as if everything depends on you." Translated into the present context, it would say something like" train your client to be the best belayer they can possibly be, and then climb as if they are incompetent." I guess there is a danger that the "as if" part of the attitude might eventually (or even immediately) morph into an actually derisive attitude about all learners rather than a sensible strategic protocol. I agree---that would be bad for everyone involved.
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socalclimber
Nov 20, 2009, 3:32 AM
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I guess he might feel this way, I have never felt that way about my clients or any new climbers I've taken out. I'm just a firm believer in error on the side of caution. Sorry you feel that puts clients down. That's in your mind, not mine.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 20, 2009, 3:36 AM)
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cfnubbler
Nov 20, 2009, 2:13 PM
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socalclimber wrote: I guess he might feel this way, I have never felt that way about my clients or any new climbers I've taken out. I'm just a firm believer in error on the side of caution. Sorry you feel that puts clients down. That's in your mind, not mine. I didn't say you feel that way about your clients. I merely said I've observed that dynamic many, many times. And if you read my post, I think you'll see that I'm a rather cautious guy myself.
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socalclimber
Nov 20, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Understood. I am sure you are. I hope you didn't think I felt you were unsafe. Most guides are very careful. I guess it's all in how yow look at it! Cheers! This has been a good thread. Thanks for playing along. Now, when is this guy gonna finish his research???
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